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Support from viewers like you

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makes this program possible.

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Please give to your

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PBS station.

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WOMAN:

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...whether to approve or deny

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the application.

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They're the decision-makers.

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And you will receive a copy

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of my proposed recommendation

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and can attend

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that board meeting

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and present your information

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directly to them.

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With regard

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to this proceeding,

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basically,

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there are four elements

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that I have to...

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Receive information

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regarding...

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(explosion roaring)

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Everybody,

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let's get out of here.

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Now!

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Watch the electricity line!

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REPORTER:

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All that I can see,

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it looks like part

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of the building

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has been blown away.

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We'll have to bank

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around the other side

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so I can get a better view

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of it.

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The explosion, though,

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went off around 9 a.m.,

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and we could feel the explosion

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in the newsroom of Channel 9

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at least

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five miles from downtown.

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ANCHOR:

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As the chopper goes around the

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side of the Federal Building...

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REPORTER:

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Jeez, wow!

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ANCHOR:

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Look at that shot.

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It is absolutely incredible.

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The side of the Federal Building

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has been blown off.

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Jesse?

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REPORTER:

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About a third...

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About a third of the

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building has been blown away.

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This is just devastating.

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MAN:

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That morning,

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I was not in my office.

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I was at a fundraiser

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about 30 miles away.

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We had a 9:00 start,

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when all of a sudden,

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my phone went off,

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and I was told that there'd been

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some type of an explosion

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at the Murrah Building.

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The greatest fear I have

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is that we have casualties

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in the thousands.

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At any one time,

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there could be

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a couple of thousand people

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in that building.

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MAN:

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I was assigned to the Oklahoma

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City police tactical team

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at the time.

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And we immediately started

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working our way

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towards the building.

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There were several vehicles

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on the north side of the

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building in a parking lot,

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and all of them were burning.

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The black smoke

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was billowing up.

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When I walked up there,

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there was a hole in the ground

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about the size

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of a swimming pool

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that looked like about 30 feet

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in diameter

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and about seven,

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eight feet deep.

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Just a big hole in the ground.

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That's when it started

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really sinking in,

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this had to be

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some kind of bomb.

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WOMAN:

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When I first got there,

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I could see people trapped

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on different floors,

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and they needed to be rescued.

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And so I started my way

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into the building.

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I thought to myself,

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"Why Oklahoma City?

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"It's a quiet place.

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"Nothing happens here.

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It's not supposed

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to happen here."

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WOMAN:

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Yeah, we'd always had threats.

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You tell somebody,

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"I'm sorry, but," you know,

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"your claim's denied,"

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or whatever,

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and, yeah, and we'd get threats,

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but not...

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Not anything that we ever

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considered, you know, viable.

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There has been

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a massive explosion

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at a federal building

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in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

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It happened

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just a short time ago.

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A large portion of that building

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has collapsed

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and fallen away from the rest

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of the building.

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At the moment, we don't have

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any specific numbers

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on injuries or deaths,

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but we can tell you that the

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situation is obviously serious.

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WOMAN:

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I tried to put the building

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back in my mind,

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of, where would he be?

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If I have to dig for my son,

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where should I dig?

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00:04:35,734 --> 00:04:37,360
And so, that's what I did.

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I visualized the first floor,

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the second floor,

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the childcare was here,

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his crib would be here,

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and that's where I wanted

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to get to.

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As I started to climb up

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the debris and the rubble,

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I remember a man yelling,

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"You can't go up there,

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it's too dangerous!"

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And I remember telling him,

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"Our babies are in there!

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Our babies are in there!"

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I just kept saying,

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"Our babies are in there."

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WOMAN:

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When I saw the building

165
00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351
for the first time,

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I just couldn't see

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how anybody could have survived

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any of that.

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So at that point,

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I think my mind was thinking,

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"My kids are gone."

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MAN:

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I drove down there

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and met Claudia.

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We walked up to a perimeter

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and I asked a officer, I said,

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"We have two, two babies

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in the daycare center.

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Can I, can I go in?"

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OFFICER (in distance):

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Move back, move back, move back.

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Move back, move back.

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JIM DENNY:

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I could see people

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that are covered

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with blankets, towels, whatever,

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that are gone.

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And I'm praying that one of them

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is not a small child.

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MAN:

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I knew a lot of the people

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in the building.

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I knew the D.E.A. agents

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that were in the building,

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I knew the ATF agents

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that were in the building,

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and those people

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were friends of mine.

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I could not believe

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what had happened to all of them

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and how this could be.

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How could somebody get

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to that state in their life

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where they could be

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00:06:18,212 --> 00:06:20,463
so angry and upset

206
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that they would do something

207
00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:22,216
like this?

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MAN:

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00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:32,809
Who started the war?

210
00:06:32,851 --> 00:06:34,311
And who was the aggressor?

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00:06:34,353 --> 00:06:38,357
That's how I look

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00:06:34,353 --> 00:06:38,357
at the Murrah bombing.

213
00:06:38,397 --> 00:06:41,568
To me, it wasn't a start

214
00:06:38,397 --> 00:06:41,568
of a war,

215
00:06:41,609 --> 00:06:43,778
it was a counterattack.

216
00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,365
The war had already been

217
00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,365
started.

218
00:06:46,405 --> 00:06:47,824
You guys think

219
00:06:46,405 --> 00:06:47,824
you can be ruthless?

220
00:06:47,866 --> 00:06:50,409
Let's see how you like it

221
00:06:47,866 --> 00:06:50,409
when the...

222
00:06:50,451 --> 00:06:52,829
when the fight

223
00:06:50,451 --> 00:06:52,829
is brought to you.

224
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If you continue with shit

225
00:06:52,871 --> 00:06:57,625
like Ruby Ridge and Waco,

226
00:06:57,667 --> 00:06:59,627
this is what's going to happen.

227
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MAN:

228
00:07:16,103 --> 00:07:17,729
Northern Idaho.

229
00:07:17,771 --> 00:07:21,900
It's a remote place, it's

230
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a predominantly white place,

231
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and it's the kind of place

232
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where everybody sort of minds

233
00:07:23,818 --> 00:07:28,656
their own business.

234
00:07:28,698 --> 00:07:33,494
In the 1980s, a lot of extremist

235
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groups found a sanctuary there.

236
00:07:36,998 --> 00:07:37,958
White power!

237
00:07:37,999 --> 00:07:38,959
MAN:

238
00:07:37,999 --> 00:07:38,959
What do we need?

239
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,501
ALL:

240
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,501
White power!

241
00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755
MAN:

242
00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755
One of those groups

243
00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755
was the Aryan Nations.

244
00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512
MAN:

245
00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512
The Aryan Nations had

246
00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512
established itself

247
00:07:51,554 --> 00:07:55,892
in Hayden Lake as a sort

248
00:07:51,554 --> 00:07:55,892
of headquarters of hate,

249
00:07:55,934 --> 00:07:59,520
radical right-wing hate.

250
00:07:59,562 --> 00:08:01,856
MAN:

251
00:07:59,562 --> 00:08:01,856
We the white race lost the war.

252
00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:05,526
A plague known as Jews

253
00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:05,526
won the war,

254
00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,988
infiltrated our bloodstream

255
00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,988
of our race

256
00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:11,158
in every country

257
00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:11,158
in which we reside.

258
00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871
MAN:

259
00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871
Richard Butler, like many

260
00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871
far-right people at the time,

261
00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:21,126
held that the federal government

262
00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:21,126
was in the hands of the Jews.

263
00:08:21,168 --> 00:08:25,630
And the only way to save America

264
00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:29,509
was to assert

265
00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:29,509
your Christian sovereignty,

266
00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,804
your white Christian

267
00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,804
sovereignty.

268
00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557
BUTLER:

269
00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557
Every major city in the United

270
00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557
States is now non-white,

271
00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,562
following the catastrophic

272
00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,562
destruction of our race

273
00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,566
in the so-called Civil War,

274
00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,566
or the War Between the States.

275
00:08:45,608 --> 00:08:51,198
America shall again become

276
00:08:45,608 --> 00:08:51,198
white and Christian.

277
00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:55,410
There'll be a lot of blood

278
00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:55,410
running one day.

279
00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,164
I don't advocate it,

280
00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,164
I don't want it.

281
00:08:59,206 --> 00:09:00,581
But it's going to come

282
00:09:00,623 --> 00:09:06,129
as sure as day follows night

283
00:09:00,623 --> 00:09:06,129
and night follows day.

284
00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,840
MAN:

285
00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,840
In the 1980s, in America,

286
00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:12,593
the white race was becoming

287
00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:12,593
the minority race.

288
00:09:12,635 --> 00:09:15,596
Racist groups used that

289
00:09:12,635 --> 00:09:15,596
as a calling card.

290
00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:17,598
"Come join us,

291
00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:17,598
because the white race

292
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,933
is going to be driven

293
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,933
to extinction."

294
00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565
MAN:

295
00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565
The Aryan Nations

296
00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565
attracted people

297
00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:29,652
from all walks of life

298
00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:29,652
who were, who were white,

299
00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:36,034
all of them looking for someone

300
00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:36,034
to blame for the situation.

301
00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,996
And they focused their anger

302
00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,996
on the federal government.

303
00:09:40,038 --> 00:09:44,625
People like Robert Mathews.

304
00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045
MORLIN:

305
00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045
Robert Mathews showed up

306
00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045
at the Aryan Nations

307
00:09:47,087 --> 00:09:49,423
in the early 1980s.

308
00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:53,552
And there, he met

309
00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:53,552
other young men like him,

310
00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:55,803
who thought

311
00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:55,803
that it was just talk.

312
00:09:55,845 --> 00:09:57,347
It was no action.

313
00:09:57,389 --> 00:09:59,849
Bob Mathews said,

314
00:09:57,389 --> 00:09:59,849
"The time has come for action."

315
00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:02,310
You Jews get the heck

316
00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:02,310
out of here!

317
00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:04,645
I didn't come all the way

318
00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:04,645
down here to hear you!

319
00:10:04,687 --> 00:10:05,688
Go over there!

320
00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:08,358
...the words of Jesus Christ...

321
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319
MAN:

322
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319
Bob Mathews wanted to start

323
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319
a revolution.

324
00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:12,737
He saw the United States

325
00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:12,737
government

326
00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:17,951
as a complete and utter enemy,

327
00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:17,951
run by Satanic Jews,

328
00:10:17,992 --> 00:10:22,497
that had to be destroyed.

329
00:10:22,539 --> 00:10:25,333
MORLIN:

330
00:10:22,539 --> 00:10:25,333
He had 12 or so other followers,

331
00:10:25,375 --> 00:10:28,253
most of whom he had met

332
00:10:25,375 --> 00:10:28,253
at the Aryan Nations,

333
00:10:28,295 --> 00:10:29,670
and they decided

334
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,341
that they would basically

335
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,341
declare war on the U.S.

336
00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848
MAN:

337
00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848
As Bob Mathews was formulating

338
00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848
a plan for his organization,

339
00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:44,685
he discovered a book

340
00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:44,685
called  The Turner Diaries,

341
00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:48,689
written by a racist

342
00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:48,689
named William Pierce.

343
00:10:48,731 --> 00:10:54,695
It was a fictional account

344
00:10:48,731 --> 00:10:54,695
of a group of patriots

345
00:10:54,737 --> 00:10:57,282
that came together

346
00:10:54,737 --> 00:10:57,282
in a very small number,

347
00:10:57,324 --> 00:10:59,576
much like what Bob was planning

348
00:10:57,324 --> 00:10:59,576
to do,

349
00:10:59,618 --> 00:11:01,702
and overthrow

350
00:10:59,618 --> 00:11:01,702
the United States government.

351
00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:07,708
And as Bob read this,

352
00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:07,708
he thought, "This is us.

353
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,711
This is the plan

354
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,711
we need to follow."

355
00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048
MAN:

356
00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048
"Unit 8 will secure a large

357
00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048
quantity of explosives,

358
00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:16,050
"between five and ten tons.

359
00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:17,594
"We will then drive

360
00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,388
"into the FBI building's

361
00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,388
freight receiving area,

362
00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:22,765
set the fuse,

363
00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:22,765
and leave the truck."

364
00:11:22,807 --> 00:11:26,561
POTOK:

365
00:11:22,807 --> 00:11:26,561
The Turner Diaries  culminates

366
00:11:26,603 --> 00:11:28,771
with these anti-government

367
00:11:26,603 --> 00:11:28,771
resisters

368
00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:34,277
blowing up the FBI headquarters

369
00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:34,277
in Washington, D.C.

370
00:11:34,319 --> 00:11:37,738
It had this electrifying,

371
00:11:34,319 --> 00:11:37,738
energizing effect

372
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:39,698
on all kinds of people

373
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:39,698
on the radical right.

374
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755
MAN:

375
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755
The Order is a small group,

376
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755
but a very formidable group,

377
00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,009
and they start robbing banks,

378
00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,009
armored cars,

379
00:11:58,051 --> 00:11:59,594
kill whoever they had to kill.

380
00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:00,719
They didn't care.

381
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813
MANIS:

382
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813
Their expertise grew

383
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813
week by week and month by month.

384
00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:16,236
This was an organization

385
00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:16,236
that had taken real form

386
00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:19,738
and had real leadership

387
00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:19,738
and direction.

388
00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,785
And then they formed

389
00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,785
an assassination squad

390
00:12:24,827 --> 00:12:26,204
to go to Denver.

391
00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873
RADIO ANNOUNCER:

392
00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873
You're listening to Alan Berg

393
00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873
on KOA.

394
00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:29,874
You never shut up!

395
00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:31,167
I got fed up with you!

396
00:12:31,209 --> 00:12:33,836
You never let me get a word

397
00:12:31,209 --> 00:12:33,836
edgewise-- get out of here!

398
00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091
POTOK:

399
00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091
The Jewish talk show host

400
00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091
Alan Berg

401
00:12:38,132 --> 00:12:40,552
had angered the radical right

402
00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:43,054
by essentially mocking them

403
00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:43,054
on his radio show.

404
00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,847
If you're not a Christian,

405
00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,847
you're un-American.

406
00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:46,391
Is that your point, sir?

407
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808
MAN:

408
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808
That's right!

409
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808
Good point, sir!

410
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229
NOBLE:

411
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229
He spoke out

412
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229
against the right wing

413
00:12:51,271 --> 00:12:53,607
and the Christian Patriot

414
00:12:51,271 --> 00:12:53,607
movement,

415
00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:56,901
yeah, and members

416
00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:56,901
of The Order got fed up.

417
00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410
LEVITAS:

418
00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410
Alan Berg was shot to death

419
00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410
in the driveway of his home.

420
00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:07,704
It was essentially

421
00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:07,704
domestic terrorism.

422
00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:13,792
It was born-and-bred Americans

423
00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:13,792
inspired by racism,

424
00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:19,840
anti-Semitism,

425
00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:19,840
and anti-government ideology.

426
00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845
MANIS:

427
00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845
The FBI really didn't know

428
00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845
who these individuals were.

429
00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,599
But a great break happened

430
00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,599
for us

431
00:13:27,641 --> 00:13:30,226
when Bob Mathews decided

432
00:13:27,641 --> 00:13:30,226
they're going to take down

433
00:13:30,268 --> 00:13:31,810
a Brinks truck that's carrying

434
00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:35,315
multiples of millions

435
00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:35,315
of dollars.

436
00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:36,857
So they do.

437
00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:42,196
A very brazen daylight robbery

438
00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:42,196
right out on a highway.

439
00:13:42,238 --> 00:13:43,864
They take this thing down.

440
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,867
Bob Mathews is in there,

441
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,867
he's clearing out money,

442
00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:50,330
and his pistol falls out

443
00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:50,330
of his waistband.

444
00:13:50,371 --> 00:13:52,666
And we get that pistol.

445
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511
MORLIN:

446
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511
They convince some members

447
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511
of The Order to surrender.

448
00:14:04,552 --> 00:14:08,264
But Mathews wouldn't surrender.

449
00:14:08,306 --> 00:14:10,891
And after a two-

450
00:14:08,306 --> 00:14:10,891
or three-day standoff,

451
00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,146
the FBI moves in on the cabin

452
00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,146
and a gunfight occurs.

453
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526
MANIS:

454
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526
I'm just a little ways

455
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526
from the house,

456
00:14:19,567 --> 00:14:20,943
and the bullets are hitting

457
00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,280
right at the trees

458
00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,280
and the brush line where I'm at.

459
00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:25,865
You know, he's got plenty

460
00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:25,865
of weapons,

461
00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:27,950
he's got thousands of rounds

462
00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:27,950
of ammunition.

463
00:14:27,992 --> 00:14:32,913
He was committed.

464
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500
MAN:

465
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500
The next evening,

466
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500
it was starting to get dark,

467
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,669
so we put in

468
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,669
some illumination rounds,

469
00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,087
and those rounds,

470
00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,087
one of them or so, caught fire,

471
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:41,255
and the building started

472
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:41,255
to burn.

473
00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677
MANIS:

474
00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677
And then it was

475
00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677
like firecrackers,

476
00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,929
just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop,

477
00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,929
going off everywhere,

478
00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:53,100
with the cooking-off

479
00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:53,100
of the rounds.

480
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:57,104
At daybreak, I walked up

481
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:57,104
to the remains of the house

482
00:14:57,146 --> 00:15:01,651
and saw a charred body there.

483
00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529
NOBLE:

484
00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529
Mathews' death forced

485
00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529
the movement, everybody,

486
00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:05,946
to look at themselves:

487
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:09,743
"Am I really ready and willing

488
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:09,743
to die for the cause?"

489
00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,957
MANIS:

490
00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,957
The FBI was on high alert.

491
00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:22,797
I mean, domestic terrorism now

492
00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:22,797
was top order.

493
00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,300
And there was a massive amount

494
00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,300
of investigation and arrests

495
00:15:26,342 --> 00:15:30,263
throughout the United States.

496
00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,640
MORLIN:

497
00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,640
By the mid-'80s,

498
00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:35,810
the federal agencies had

499
00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:35,810
the lesson of The Order,

500
00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:36,977
so they knew some of the folks

501
00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,772
that had come out

502
00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,772
of the Aryan Nations

503
00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:40,189
were doing bad things--

504
00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:40,189
they were committing crimes,

505
00:15:40,231 --> 00:15:41,691
they were killing people.

506
00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,819
So the Feds were interested in,

507
00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,819
who's there,

508
00:15:44,861 --> 00:15:46,070
and what are they doing,

509
00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:47,947
and what are they planning

510
00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:47,947
on doing next?

511
00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378
LEVITAS:

512
00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378
Randy Weaver was a person

513
00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378
with white separatist beliefs

514
00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:07,007
who moved his family from Iowa

515
00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:07,007
to Boundary County, Idaho,

516
00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:11,512
to a place called Ruby Ridge.

517
00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642
MORLIN:

518
00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642
They were 50 miles or so

519
00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642
from the Canadian border.

520
00:16:15,683 --> 00:16:16,810
They had no electricity,

521
00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,686
no running water,

522
00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,686
no indoor plumbing.

523
00:16:18,728 --> 00:16:20,020
We're talking about a cabin

524
00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,399
made by Randy Weaver

525
00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,399
and his wife

526
00:16:23,441 --> 00:16:26,110
on a mountaintop.

527
00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:29,155
These are people that want

528
00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:29,155
to be left alone.

529
00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369
WALTER:

530
00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369
The Weavers were deeply

531
00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369
religious

532
00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:37,163
and they wanted to live

533
00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:37,163
in a style

534
00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:41,793
they believed

535
00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:41,793
was Old Testament Christian.

536
00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:43,795
They were really imagining

537
00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:43,795
this fortress,

538
00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:47,465
this place where they could

539
00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:47,465
really separate themselves

540
00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:51,093
from a corrupt

541
00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:51,093
and dangerous world.

542
00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182
MAN:

543
00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182
I don't know

544
00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182
that Randy Weaver knew

545
00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:59,059
at the time that they moved

546
00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:59,059
to Ruby Ridge

547
00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:03,397
that they would be so close

548
00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:03,397
to the Aryan Nations compound,

549
00:17:03,439 --> 00:17:07,151
which was just 60 miles south.

550
00:17:07,193 --> 00:17:10,446
But they started showing up.

551
00:17:10,488 --> 00:17:12,072
At first, it was purely social.

552
00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:15,869
They attended family picnics,

553
00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:15,869
those kinds of things.

554
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,454
But as Randy began

555
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,454
to interact more with them,

556
00:17:18,496 --> 00:17:22,082
he bought into the message,

557
00:17:18,496 --> 00:17:22,082
the anti-government message.

558
00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586
BUTLER:

559
00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586
A movement is growing

560
00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586
all over the world.

561
00:17:25,628 --> 00:17:28,130
Good men are coming forth,

562
00:17:28,172 --> 00:17:31,384
men with iron wills

563
00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:34,679
who are determined that their

564
00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:34,679
race is not going to die

565
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,055
and become extinct.

566
00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687
MORLIN:

567
00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687
By the time Randy Weaver started

568
00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687
showing up at the Aryan Nations,

569
00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,147
it was just after

570
00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,147
the whole Matthews episode.

571
00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:48,776
And, unfortunately

572
00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:48,776
for Randy Weaver,

573
00:17:48,818 --> 00:17:50,820
the Feds were listening.

574
00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:53,865
LEVITAS:

575
00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:53,865
They had lots of events there

576
00:17:53,907 --> 00:17:57,284
designed to potentially recruit

577
00:17:53,907 --> 00:17:57,284
harder-core folks

578
00:17:57,326 --> 00:17:59,495
into the compound,

579
00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:02,122
and it was at one

580
00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:02,122
of those meetings

581
00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:07,378
that Randy Weaver was spotted by

582
00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:07,378
an undercover federal informant.

583
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049
MORLIN:

584
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049
This guy got next

585
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049
to Randy Weaver

586
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,968
and learned that he was,

587
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,968
you know, clearly a racist,

588
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:15,887
that he wanted to live

589
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:15,887
his white separatist lifestyle

590
00:18:15,929 --> 00:18:17,471
in North Idaho,

591
00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:21,225
but that he was having trouble

592
00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:21,225
putting two nickels together,

593
00:18:21,267 --> 00:18:23,770
and that he was interested

594
00:18:21,267 --> 00:18:23,770
in some income.

595
00:18:23,811 --> 00:18:25,312
And one thing led to another,

596
00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,399
and pretty soon, Randy Weaver

597
00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,399
agrees to saw off some shotguns.

598
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907
NOBLE:

599
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907
In my opinion, the ATF pretty

600
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907
much entrapped him

601
00:18:35,949 --> 00:18:38,117
into making these shotguns

602
00:18:35,949 --> 00:18:38,117
illegal

603
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,411
by cutting off

604
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,411
too much of the barrel,

605
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:44,164
and then comes out and wants

606
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:44,164
to arrest him over it.

607
00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167
MORLIN:

608
00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167
They figured,

609
00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167
"If we arrest this guy

610
00:18:47,209 --> 00:18:49,128
"on federal firearms charges,

611
00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,797
"maybe he can lead us

612
00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,797
to other people

613
00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:52,298
that are doing

614
00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:52,298
more dastardly things."

615
00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:57,428
They did think Randy Weaver

616
00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:57,428
could be flipped.

617
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180
BOTTING:

618
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180
So they asked him to be

619
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180
an informant,

620
00:19:00,222 --> 00:19:03,225
which he immediately refused.

621
00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:05,728
Randy Weaver didn't trust

622
00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:05,728
the government

623
00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,187
and was absolutely

624
00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,187
not interested

625
00:19:07,229 --> 00:19:09,107
in being an informant.

626
00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,443
However, he failed to appear

627
00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,443
for his next court appearance.

628
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196
WALTER:

629
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196
Once you don't show up

630
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196
for trial,

631
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,867
the case is assigned

632
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,867
to the U.S. Marshals Service.

633
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,702
And the U.S. Marshals Service

634
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,702
doesn't know

635
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:23,830
whether or not

636
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:23,830
Randy Weaver was entrapped

637
00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,873
or how those shotguns

638
00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,873
came about.

639
00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:28,542
They just know

640
00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:28,542
they have a fugitive.

641
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342
BOTTING:

642
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342
The marshals brought in

643
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342
their special surveillance team

644
00:19:36,383 --> 00:19:39,553
and they kind of

645
00:19:36,383 --> 00:19:39,553
skunked around the property

646
00:19:39,595 --> 00:19:40,930
trying to find a location

647
00:19:40,972 --> 00:19:42,473
to take him into custody

648
00:19:40,972 --> 00:19:42,473
without a problem.

649
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311
MAN:

650
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311
Well, this is the approach

651
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311
from the east.

652
00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981
MORLIN:

653
00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981
One of the things

654
00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981
that they decided to do

655
00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,025
was to have motion-activated

656
00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,025
cameras

657
00:19:52,066 --> 00:19:54,027
placed near the Weaver cabin.

658
00:19:54,068 --> 00:19:57,404
The tapes showed

659
00:19:54,068 --> 00:19:57,404
that Randy Weaver was there

660
00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:01,575
with his wife and his children

661
00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:01,575
and a man named Kevin Harris,

662
00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:04,912
and that they frequently

663
00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:04,912
were armed.

664
00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,706
They have to have been

665
00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,706
shaking their heads.

666
00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:08,248
"What are we going to do?

667
00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,792
"We go up there,

668
00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,792
and he's going to shoot at us,

669
00:20:09,834 --> 00:20:11,044
and we're going to shoot back."

670
00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,549
BOTTING:

671
00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,549
On the day of the shooting,

672
00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,468
the marshals had a six-man team

673
00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,468
they divided into two elements,

674
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:22,596
and one element of three went up

675
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:22,596
on the mountain

676
00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266
to have a visual on the cabin

677
00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266
itself.

678
00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:31,022
The other element was on the

679
00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:31,022
ground, closer to the cabin,

680
00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,566
when the Weavers' dog caught

681
00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,566
the scent of the marshals

682
00:20:33,607 --> 00:20:36,235
and went after them.

683
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:41,949
All we know at that point was,

684
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:41,949
there was a shootout.

685
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788
MORLIN:

686
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788
Who shot who first

687
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788
is still subject

688
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,707
to, you know, interpretation,

689
00:20:49,749 --> 00:20:51,834
but when it was all said

690
00:20:49,749 --> 00:20:51,834
and done,

691
00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,796
14-year-old Sammy Weaver's dead,

692
00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,796
the dog's dead,

693
00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:58,298
and so is Federal Marshal

694
00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:58,298
William Degan,

695
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,636
killed on the property

696
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,636
of a white separatist.

697
00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:04,346
The FBI had every reason

698
00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:04,346
to think,

699
00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:06,224
when they're dealing

700
00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:06,224
with Randy Weaver,

701
00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,267
they could be dealing

702
00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,267
with another Bob Mathews.

703
00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689
WALTER:

704
00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689
Because they believe that they

705
00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689
are deploying into a firefight

706
00:21:13,731 --> 00:21:15,649
with a group

707
00:21:13,731 --> 00:21:15,649
of armed separatists

708
00:21:15,691 --> 00:21:18,318
very much like The Order,

709
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,863
the rationale is given

710
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,863
that a surrender warning

711
00:21:20,905 --> 00:21:22,240
doesn't need to be called out,

712
00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:23,824
that that warning

713
00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:23,824
has already been given,

714
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:30,790
so agents can open fire as soon

715
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:30,790
as they see any armed adult.

716
00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:36,003
Well, the Weavers

717
00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:36,003
are always armed.

718
00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259
BOTTING:

719
00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259
I got there and there were

720
00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259
trucks and jeeps

721
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,594
and all kinds of vehicles,

722
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,594
you know,

723
00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:48,141
even armored personnel carriers.

724
00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,310
It was just overwhelming

725
00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,310
how much was happening

726
00:21:51,351 --> 00:21:52,645
and how many people

727
00:21:51,351 --> 00:21:52,645
were involved.

728
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,194
MORLIN:

729
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,194
Where we were,

730
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,362
at the roadblock,

731
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,362
it was out of view

732
00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,617
of where this base operation

733
00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,617
was occurring.

734
00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:08,368
But there were, you know,

735
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,746
an assortment

736
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,746
of law enforcement people

737
00:22:10,788 --> 00:22:14,208
going across this little bridge.

738
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,211
Neighbors and friends

739
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,211
of Randy Weaver

740
00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,630
and reporters

741
00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,630
from all over the country

742
00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:22,883
started gathering there,

743
00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:22,883
trying to get information.

744
00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094
If we can tell you something,

745
00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094
we will,

746
00:22:25,136 --> 00:22:26,971
but most of it will all come out

747
00:22:25,136 --> 00:22:26,971
of Washington, D.C.

748
00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098
MORLIN:

749
00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098
We were down

750
00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098
a good two miles or so

751
00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:31,100
from where the actual cabin was.

752
00:22:31,142 --> 00:22:36,647
So we had no clue

753
00:22:31,142 --> 00:22:36,647
as to what the FBI had in mind.

754
00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:43,403
WALTER:

755
00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:43,403
As morning dawns on Ruby Ridge,

756
00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,740
a team of ten FBI agents

757
00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,740
surround the cabin.

758
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:50,410
These are snipers who've been

759
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:50,410
trained to, you know,

760
00:22:50,452 --> 00:22:53,080
to hit a dime from 200 meters.

761
00:22:55,457 --> 00:22:58,794
Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris,

762
00:22:55,457 --> 00:22:58,794
and Sara Weaver

763
00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,340
decide they're going to go out

764
00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,340
and check on Sam Weaver's body.

765
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,134
They make their way out

766
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,134
with their weapons to the shed

767
00:23:05,176 --> 00:23:07,720
where Samuel has been taken

768
00:23:05,176 --> 00:23:07,720
by the family,

769
00:23:07,761 --> 00:23:11,598
when a shot rings out.

770
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,809
Randy is hit in the shoulder.

771
00:23:13,851 --> 00:23:20,440
They run back to the house

772
00:23:13,851 --> 00:23:20,440
and another shot rings out.

773
00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,403
This shot goes through the door,

774
00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,403
hits Vicki Weaver in the face,

775
00:23:25,445 --> 00:23:28,282
splinters,

776
00:23:25,445 --> 00:23:28,282
and wounds Kevin Harris,

777
00:23:28,324 --> 00:23:30,617
and drops Vicki dead

778
00:23:28,324 --> 00:23:30,617
to the floor.

779
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458
MORLIN:

780
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458
When word came down that Sammy

781
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458
and Vicki Weaver were dead,

782
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:40,460
the crowd at the roadblock,

783
00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,923
which numbered 50, to 100,

784
00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,923
to 200 on occasion,

785
00:23:43,964 --> 00:23:44,840
went crazy.

786
00:23:44,882 --> 00:23:48,219
(protesters yelling)

787
00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:50,012
MAN:

788
00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:50,012
You call yourself an American?

789
00:23:50,054 --> 00:23:52,181
These are Americans!

790
00:23:52,223 --> 00:23:54,141
These are God-fearing people!

791
00:23:54,183 --> 00:23:55,559
You don't even know

792
00:23:54,183 --> 00:23:55,559
your Constitution.

793
00:23:55,601 --> 00:23:58,478
Go back and read

794
00:23:55,601 --> 00:23:58,478
what your founding fathers said.

795
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566
POTOK:

796
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566
The events at Ruby Ridge lit up

797
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566
the radical right.

798
00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:06,153
Here was a government that would

799
00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:06,153
murder men, women, and children

800
00:24:06,195 --> 00:24:09,323
in order to pursue whatever

801
00:24:06,195 --> 00:24:09,323
their ends were.

802
00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:10,741
Baby killers!

803
00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:10,741
Baby killers!

804
00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495
POTOK:

805
00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495
The roadblock became

806
00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495
a gathering point

807
00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:18,874
for skinheads,

808
00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:18,874
for Aryan Nations members,

809
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:20,876
for all kinds of people,

810
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:20,876
you know,

811
00:24:20,918 --> 00:24:22,502
furiously shaking their fists

812
00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,172
at the Zionist-occupied

813
00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,172
government.

814
00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,216
You're a disgrace

815
00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,216
to the white race!

816
00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,302
MAN:

817
00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,302
Disgrace to the race!

818
00:24:29,343 --> 00:24:31,971
This was the first time

819
00:24:29,343 --> 00:24:31,971
the movement had gathered

820
00:24:32,012 --> 00:24:33,513
in such a fashion,

821
00:24:33,555 --> 00:24:37,268
this publicly.

822
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,520
It became a political event

823
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,520
of its own.

824
00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:45,525
These were people who saw

825
00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:45,525
themselves in Randy Weaver.

826
00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:00,540
You look at what happened

827
00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:02,751
and how many times it could have

828
00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:02,751
been averted and avoided.

829
00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,256
The idea that the far right had

830
00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,256
at that moment

831
00:25:07,298 --> 00:25:10,384
that the government was

832
00:25:07,298 --> 00:25:10,384
a very dangerous entity,

833
00:25:10,426 --> 00:25:14,554
this case would seem to prove it

834
00:25:10,426 --> 00:25:14,554
as completely as possible.

835
00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517
MAN:

836
00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517
Mr. Weaver, do you have anything

837
00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517
to say?

838
00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609
ZESKIND:

839
00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609
Ruby Ridge, more even than

840
00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609
Robert Mathews and The Order,

841
00:25:27,651 --> 00:25:32,572
became a central calling card

842
00:25:27,651 --> 00:25:32,572
and rallying card

843
00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:34,532
for the far right.

844
00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:39,246
For them, the government

845
00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:39,246
was after Weaver's guns

846
00:25:39,288 --> 00:25:41,623
and his religion.

847
00:25:41,665 --> 00:25:45,336
And guns and religion became

848
00:25:41,665 --> 00:25:45,336
the twin pillars

849
00:25:45,378 --> 00:25:48,839
of the white supremacist

850
00:25:45,378 --> 00:25:48,839
movement.

851
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095
MORLIN:

852
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095
In late summer, 1992,

853
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095
after Ruby Ridge,

854
00:25:55,137 --> 00:25:58,057
several members

855
00:25:55,137 --> 00:25:58,057
of the extremist movement

856
00:25:58,098 --> 00:26:00,600
saw that as an opportune moment

857
00:26:00,642 --> 00:26:02,560
to sort of gather everybody

858
00:26:00,642 --> 00:26:02,560
together

859
00:26:02,602 --> 00:26:04,021
and, "Let's raise hell

860
00:26:02,602 --> 00:26:04,021
about this."

861
00:26:04,063 --> 00:26:09,026
One race, one folk, one nation,

862
00:26:04,063 --> 00:26:09,026
one people, one homeland!

863
00:26:09,068 --> 00:26:10,736
We're going to have it!

864
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614
LEVITAS:

865
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614
Louis Beam, former grand dragon

866
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614
of the Ku Klux Klan, said,

867
00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:19,412
now is the time for you

868
00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:19,412
as an individual

869
00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:24,624
to commit overt acts

870
00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:24,624
of anti-government violence.

871
00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,836
Essentially,

872
00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,836
anybody representative

873
00:26:27,878 --> 00:26:29,629
of government or law enforcement

874
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:34,968
was a fair and reasonable

875
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:34,968
target.

876
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139
NOBLE:

877
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139
The government is an enemy

878
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139
of the people.

879
00:26:39,181 --> 00:26:42,142
And in this war,

880
00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,644
it's an, it's an all-or-nothing,

881
00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,644
you know.

882
00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:48,482
We're either going to win

883
00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:48,482
as the white race

884
00:26:48,524 --> 00:26:51,777
or we're going to lose.

885
00:26:58,534 --> 00:26:59,952
MAN (on radio):

886
00:26:58,534 --> 00:26:59,952
602 to Operations.

887
00:26:59,993 --> 00:27:02,162
The water is shut off

888
00:26:59,993 --> 00:27:02,162
to the federal building.

889
00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:04,290
At this time,

890
00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:04,290
the water is shut off.

891
00:27:04,331 --> 00:27:07,418
(sirens blaring)

892
00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169
MAN:

893
00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169
Probably about 10:00

894
00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169
in the morning,

895
00:27:09,211 --> 00:27:11,671
I got a call at the hospital.

896
00:27:11,713 --> 00:27:13,507
There's a lady who's trapped,

897
00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,593
and the only way

898
00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,593
that we're going to be able

899
00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:16,760
to extricate her

900
00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:16,760
and save her life

901
00:27:16,802 --> 00:27:18,387
is to amputate her leg.

902
00:27:18,429 --> 00:27:24,435
So I got an amputation set,

903
00:27:18,429 --> 00:27:24,435
I got some nylon rope,

904
00:27:24,477 --> 00:27:27,313
and away I went.

905
00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:31,775
When I got to the building,

906
00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:31,775
it was surreal.

907
00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,531
There were a lot

908
00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,531
of first responders there

909
00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:39,783
who had pretty well

910
00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:39,783
set things up

911
00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:45,038
so they could take somebody away

912
00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:45,038
the minute that they found them.

913
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,417
And then I was led

914
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,417
into the basement.

915
00:27:50,752 --> 00:27:52,712
FLOWERS:

916
00:27:50,752 --> 00:27:52,712
We could hear people screaming.

917
00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:54,714
We could hear them screaming,

918
00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:54,714
we could hear them crying.

919
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,636
You just couldn't see them

920
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,636
because it was so dark.

921
00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:00,720
When they fired up these lights,

922
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,141
you could see the floors

923
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,141
had fallen on top of each other

924
00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:10,314
and created, like, a dungeon

925
00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:10,314
underneath the Murrah Building.

926
00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:12,941
Everywhere you look

927
00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:12,941
in this floor

928
00:28:12,983 --> 00:28:14,692
that you could see,

929
00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:18,405
there were these round circles

930
00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:18,405
of coagulated blood

931
00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:21,033
that were coming

932
00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:21,033
through the cracks of the floor.

933
00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,744
These circles were three

934
00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,744
and four feet in diameter,

935
00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747
and they're everywhere,

936
00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747
seemed like everywhere,

937
00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:30,834
and you knew that that was

938
00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:30,834
a person that had been crushed.

939
00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757
SULLIVAN:

940
00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757
They led me to where Daina

941
00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757
was trapped.

942
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,845
There was a first responder

943
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,845
with his hand on the beam

944
00:28:41,887 --> 00:28:43,681
that had her leg trapped.

945
00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:48,227
And if it trembled or moved,

946
00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:48,227
we were told we had to go.

947
00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:53,399
The beam was lying on her leg,

948
00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:53,399
her tibia, just below the knee.

949
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,402
Basically, to do the amputation,

950
00:28:56,443 --> 00:29:00,531
I had to lie with my legs

951
00:28:56,443 --> 00:29:00,531
up by her head.

952
00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,534
And so I took the traction rope

953
00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,534
and tightened it down

954
00:29:03,576 --> 00:29:06,328
so that I had a tourniquet.

955
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:09,164
And then, you know, it's kind

956
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:09,164
of like diving into ice water.

957
00:29:09,206 --> 00:29:11,917
I had to start.

958
00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,126
MAN:

959
00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,126
Get back!

960
00:29:13,168 --> 00:29:14,127
Go, go!

961
00:29:14,169 --> 00:29:15,212
Get them back!

962
00:29:15,254 --> 00:29:17,715
Get them back!

963
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553
POTOK:

964
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553
Just as I got

965
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553
to where the barricade was,

966
00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,139
this incredible scare went

967
00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,139
through the crowd.

968
00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:27,600
Get your stuff back now!

969
00:29:27,641 --> 00:29:29,101
Someone was yelling they thought

970
00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,645
they had discovered a second

971
00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,645
bomb: "Get back, get back!"

972
00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481
MAN:

973
00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481
We've got a hot device--

974
00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481
get them back!

975
00:29:34,523 --> 00:29:36,024
FLOWERS:

976
00:29:34,523 --> 00:29:36,024
They start screaming at us.

977
00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,570
"Get out of this building, we

978
00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,570
have just found another device!"

979
00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:42,364
And of course,

980
00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:42,364
everybody's heart sinks,

981
00:29:42,406 --> 00:29:44,116
because we've got people

982
00:29:42,406 --> 00:29:44,116
still alive in here.

983
00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:48,828
WOMAN:

984
00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:48,828
I was on the eighth floor.

985
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,998
My eyes were

986
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,998
in pretty bad shape.

987
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,835
Two of my friends

988
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,835
worked their way over to me,

989
00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:59,548
and said, "We've got to get out

990
00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:59,548
of here."

991
00:29:59,590 --> 00:30:01,341
I was praying, I was saying,

992
00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,802
"Lord, don't let there be

993
00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,802
any more bombs."

994
00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848
RICKS:

995
00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848
It turns out that it was not

996
00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848
a real device.

997
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,852
It had been a mockup

998
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,852
for one of the agencies there.

999
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:15,855
But we were still telling

1000
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:15,855
people, you know,

1001
00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:17,983
that we couldn't guarantee

1002
00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:17,983
their safety

1003
00:30:18,024 --> 00:30:18,942
as they went in there.

1004
00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864
FLOWERS:

1005
00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864
I remember seeing that team

1006
00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864
down there

1007
00:30:24,906 --> 00:30:28,661
working on that girl

1008
00:30:24,906 --> 00:30:28,661
to amputate that leg.

1009
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,329
Everybody's screaming at them,

1010
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,329
"Get out of there!

1011
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,871
Get out of there,

1012
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,871
the bomb's going to..."

1013
00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,583
And they would not leave,

1014
00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,583
they would not leave her.

1015
00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,877
SULLIVAN:

1016
00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,877
I don't remember how many times

1017
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,798
I thought I had completed

1018
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,798
the amputation.

1019
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,010
We would try to extract Daina

1020
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,010
and she was still caught.

1021
00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,887
I reached a point where

1022
00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,887
all of the blades were broken

1023
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:49,515
and there was nothing else

1024
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:49,515
to do,

1025
00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,518
but I had in my pocket

1026
00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,518
a pocketknife

1027
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,728
that I keep very sharp.

1028
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,438
The thing that was

1029
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,438
keeping us from extracting her

1030
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,106
was the quadriceps tendon,

1031
00:30:58,148 --> 00:30:59,817
and once I cut through that,

1032
00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:02,444
then I could kind of get a sense

1033
00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:02,444
that the leg was free

1034
00:31:02,486 --> 00:31:04,863
and we were able to extract her.

1035
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,200
MAN (on radio):

1036
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,200
We have two critical patients.

1037
00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,787
I have one patient that needs

1038
00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,787
immediate transport...

1039
00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:15,123
SCHWAB:

1040
00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:15,123
When I got out of the building,

1041
00:31:15,165 --> 00:31:18,377
I sat on the curb

1042
00:31:15,165 --> 00:31:18,377
waiting for an ambulance.

1043
00:31:18,418 --> 00:31:20,504
I couldn't see anything,

1044
00:31:20,546 --> 00:31:23,382
but I could hear people yelling,

1045
00:31:20,546 --> 00:31:23,382
people screaming,

1046
00:31:23,423 --> 00:31:27,927
sirens in the background.

1047
00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,682
And I thought,

1048
00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,682
"What crazy person did this?

1049
00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:36,770
Who has come in here and done

1050
00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:36,770
this terrible thing?"

1051
00:31:41,066 --> 00:31:43,943
The bombing in Oklahoma City

1052
00:31:43,985 --> 00:31:46,739
was an attack

1053
00:31:43,985 --> 00:31:46,739
on innocent children

1054
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:50,534
and defenseless citizens.

1055
00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:55,581
It was an act of cowardice

1056
00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:55,581
and it was evil.

1057
00:31:55,622 --> 00:31:58,751
Let there be no room for doubt,

1058
00:31:58,792 --> 00:32:01,879
we will find the people

1059
00:31:58,792 --> 00:32:01,879
who did this.

1060
00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007
RICKS:

1061
00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007
The bombing

1062
00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007
of the Murrah Building

1063
00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:07,967
was the largest domestic

1064
00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:07,967
terrorist event

1065
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:11,971
that had ever occurred

1066
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:11,971
in the United States.

1067
00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:14,391
We probably had

1068
00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:14,391
close to 500 investigators

1069
00:32:14,433 --> 00:32:17,603
that were here in Oklahoma City.

1070
00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:22,524
We had forensic teams,

1071
00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:22,524
bomb squad teams,

1072
00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:26,820
evidence response teams,

1073
00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:26,820
all kinds of experts,

1074
00:32:26,862 --> 00:32:28,947
looking for clues.

1075
00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786
MAN:

1076
00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786
This becomes one of the biggest

1077
00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786
criminal investigations

1078
00:32:33,827 --> 00:32:35,370
in American history.

1079
00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:39,666
Every police agency

1080
00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:39,666
in the country

1081
00:32:39,708 --> 00:32:45,004
is in some way trying

1082
00:32:39,708 --> 00:32:45,004
to track down leads,

1083
00:32:45,046 --> 00:32:49,384
because at the very first,

1084
00:32:45,046 --> 00:32:49,384
they had no idea who did it.

1085
00:32:49,426 --> 00:32:51,386
(phone rings)

1086
00:32:51,428 --> 00:32:53,012
FBI Hotline.

1087
00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726
RICKS:

1088
00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726
We have had hundreds,

1089
00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726
if not thousands of leads.

1090
00:32:57,768 --> 00:33:01,062
Each one of those is treated

1091
00:32:57,768 --> 00:33:01,062
very seriously.

1092
00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,022
But at this point,

1093
00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,022
we cannot speculate

1094
00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:05,818
with regard

1095
00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:05,818
to who is responsible.

1096
00:33:05,859 --> 00:33:09,404
We ended up with leads

1097
00:33:05,859 --> 00:33:09,404
in literally every state,

1098
00:33:09,446 --> 00:33:11,030
as well as many

1099
00:33:09,446 --> 00:33:11,030
foreign countries.

1100
00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:14,242
Whenever you have

1101
00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:14,242
a mass catastrophe,

1102
00:33:14,284 --> 00:33:15,786
such as the Murrah bombing,

1103
00:33:15,828 --> 00:33:17,078
the assumption is always,

1104
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,038
"You've got to have

1105
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,038
this great conspiracy.

1106
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,125
There've got to be

1107
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,125
multiple people involved."

1108
00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,879
And we operated

1109
00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,879
under that assumption, as well.

1110
00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:29,048
We were getting calls, even

1111
00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:29,048
just after the bombing happened.

1112
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:31,844
We were getting reports

1113
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:31,844
by the thousands,

1114
00:33:31,885 --> 00:33:34,805
that, "I saw this, I saw that."

1115
00:33:34,847 --> 00:33:37,349
Then we started getting calls

1116
00:33:34,847 --> 00:33:37,349
over the radio

1117
00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:38,642
about Middle Easterners.

1118
00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,185
"Start looking

1119
00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,185
for Middle Easterners."

1120
00:33:40,226 --> 00:33:44,982
There has yet been no claim of

1121
00:33:40,226 --> 00:33:44,982
responsibility for this bombing,

1122
00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:47,066
although if you talk

1123
00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:47,066
to intelligence sources

1124
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,735
and to law enforcement

1125
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,735
officials,

1126
00:33:48,777 --> 00:33:51,070
they all say

1127
00:33:48,777 --> 00:33:51,070
in their early guess

1128
00:33:51,112 --> 00:33:52,364
in this situation

1129
00:33:52,405 --> 00:33:53,740
is that this particular bombing

1130
00:33:53,782 --> 00:33:55,909
probably has roots

1131
00:33:53,782 --> 00:33:55,909
in the Middle East.

1132
00:33:55,951 --> 00:33:58,244
A U.S. government source

1133
00:33:55,951 --> 00:33:58,244
has told CBS News

1134
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,707
that it has Middle East

1135
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,707
terrorism written all over it.

1136
00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,626
WOMAN:

1137
00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,626
I started making phone calls,

1138
00:34:04,668 --> 00:34:06,127
trying to find out

1139
00:34:04,668 --> 00:34:06,127
what was going on

1140
00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,588
and very quickly found out

1141
00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,588
that the Feds went

1142
00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:11,090
and raided an apartment

1143
00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:11,090
in Dallas

1144
00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:15,094
that was occupied

1145
00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:15,094
by some Middle Eastern guys.

1146
00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,096
But then someone I spoke to

1147
00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,096
said,

1148
00:34:17,138 --> 00:34:19,474
"Do you know what day it is?"

1149
00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:21,059
I said, you know, "What?"

1150
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,102
I had been off work

1151
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,102
for a couple of days,

1152
00:34:23,144 --> 00:34:25,104
and so, you know,

1153
00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,106
wasn't paying attention

1154
00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,106
to the calendar that closely.

1155
00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:29,359
And someone said,

1156
00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:29,359
"It's April 19."

1157
00:34:29,401 --> 00:34:33,112
Immediately it hit me.

1158
00:34:33,154 --> 00:34:35,824
This is about Waco.

1159
00:34:35,866 --> 00:34:38,035
You know, this is about Waco.

1160
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,129
♪ Give me that

1161
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,129
old-time religion ♪

1162
00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:53,884
♪ Give me that

1163
00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:53,884
old-time religion ♪

1164
00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,344
♪ Give me that

1165
00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,344
old-time religion ♪

1166
00:34:56,386 --> 00:34:59,347
♪ It's good enough for me! ♪

1167
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141
WRIGHT:

1168
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141
The Branch Davidians

1169
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141
had been in Texas

1170
00:35:02,183 --> 00:35:03,309
for over 50 years

1171
00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:05,979
by the time that most people

1172
00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:05,979
outside of Waco

1173
00:35:06,021 --> 00:35:07,022
had ever heard of them.

1174
00:35:07,064 --> 00:35:09,608
They were an offshoot

1175
00:35:09,649 --> 00:35:12,151
of the Seventh-day

1176
00:35:09,649 --> 00:35:12,151
Adventist Church.

1177
00:35:12,193 --> 00:35:16,531
They found a place just outside

1178
00:35:12,193 --> 00:35:16,531
of Waco, called it Mt. Carmel,

1179
00:35:16,573 --> 00:35:18,992
and set up this community.

1180
00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:23,538
In the late '80s,

1181
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,457
a young Davidian

1182
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,457
named Vernon Howell

1183
00:35:25,498 --> 00:35:26,959
had a revelation

1184
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,878
that God had chosen him

1185
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,878
to be their leader.

1186
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,048
He changed his name

1187
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,048
to David Koresh

1188
00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,426
and began preaching

1189
00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,426
his vision of Armageddon

1190
00:35:36,468 --> 00:35:38,177
out of the Book of Revelation.

1191
00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:40,055
"So how's God going to talk

1192
00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:40,055
to me in the latter days?"

1193
00:35:40,097 --> 00:35:41,180
AUDIENCE:

1194
00:35:40,097 --> 00:35:41,180
It's going to be written.

1195
00:35:41,222 --> 00:35:42,348
And who's going to bring

1196
00:35:41,222 --> 00:35:42,348
that book?

1197
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:43,433
(audience mumbles answer)

1198
00:35:43,475 --> 00:35:44,559
So there'll be no excuses!

1199
00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:48,521
HANCOCK:

1200
00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:48,521
In about May of 1992,

1201
00:35:48,563 --> 00:35:51,108
the sheriff's department in Waco

1202
00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,902
got a report

1203
00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,902
from a U.P.S. truck driver

1204
00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,155
about a shipment going

1205
00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,155
to Mt. Carmel.

1206
00:35:57,196 --> 00:35:59,282
There was a box that fell apart,

1207
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,202
and some pineapple grenade hulls

1208
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,202
came out of the box.

1209
00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,955
That's what prompted

1210
00:36:04,997 --> 00:36:08,041
the beginning

1211
00:36:04,997 --> 00:36:08,041
of the ATF investigation.

1212
00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209
MAN:

1213
00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209
That investigation was able

1214
00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209
to determine

1215
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,420
that they were illegally

1216
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,420
converting automatic weapons

1217
00:36:12,462 --> 00:36:14,006
in there,

1218
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:18,176
that they had purchased

1219
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:18,176
about $43,000 worth of firearms

1220
00:36:18,217 --> 00:36:19,928
during the year prior to it,

1221
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848
and members of the community

1222
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848
out there

1223
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,391
had heard automatic weapons fire

1224
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,391
and explosions

1225
00:36:25,433 --> 00:36:28,227
coming from the compound.

1226
00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:31,230
HANCOCK:

1227
00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:31,230
Koresh preached increasingly

1228
00:36:31,272 --> 00:36:34,651
that they were going to be met

1229
00:36:31,272 --> 00:36:34,651
with an opposing force.

1230
00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:36,695
So when we start getting

1231
00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:36,695
into the subject

1232
00:36:36,736 --> 00:36:37,904
of the Seven Seals,

1233
00:36:37,946 --> 00:36:39,238
looks like somebody's

1234
00:36:37,946 --> 00:36:39,238
going to get

1235
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,740
a butt-whuppin'

1236
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,740
in the near future,

1237
00:36:40,782 --> 00:36:42,034
aren't they?

1238
00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:44,077
HANCOCK:

1239
00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:44,077
He believed that the government

1240
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830
was going to try to invade

1241
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830
this sacred ground

1242
00:36:46,872 --> 00:36:49,248
that was Mt. Carmel.

1243
00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:53,252
And so, this actually would be

1244
00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:53,252
where Armageddon takes place.

1245
00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,463
BUFORD:

1246
00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,463
People in ATF felt

1247
00:36:55,505 --> 00:37:00,093
that if this Armageddon that

1248
00:36:55,505 --> 00:37:00,093
he predicted didn't come true,

1249
00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:02,261
he was going to have to do

1250
00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:02,261
something to prompt it.

1251
00:37:02,303 --> 00:37:07,225
So we decided that we needed

1252
00:37:02,303 --> 00:37:07,225
to act as quickly as possible.

1253
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191
HANCOCK:

1254
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191
Reporters for the Waco

1255
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191
Tribune-Herald

1256
00:37:14,273 --> 00:37:17,694
had really good sources

1257
00:37:14,273 --> 00:37:17,694
in local law enforcement,

1258
00:37:17,736 --> 00:37:19,154
and they had been tipped

1259
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:22,157
about when the raid

1260
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:22,157
was going to go down.

1261
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:25,493
This road's going to be

1262
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:25,493
closed soon.

1263
00:37:25,535 --> 00:37:27,996
HANCOCK:

1264
00:37:25,535 --> 00:37:27,996
The morning of the raid,

1265
00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,707
a reporter was sent

1266
00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,707
to the compound,

1267
00:37:30,749 --> 00:37:32,209
and he's driving around

1268
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,293
trying to figure out

1269
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,293
where he is,

1270
00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:37,296
when here comes

1271
00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:37,296
a Buick station wagon,

1272
00:37:37,338 --> 00:37:38,798
stops, rolls down the window,

1273
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,341
says, "Hey, buddy,

1274
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,341
are you lost?"

1275
00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:44,888
He says, "Yeah, I'm looking

1276
00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:44,888
for Mt. Carmel.

1277
00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:48,016
There's going to be a big raid."

1278
00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:50,602
Turns out that the guy

1279
00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:50,602
in the car

1280
00:37:50,643 --> 00:37:54,773
is one of the inner circle

1281
00:37:50,643 --> 00:37:54,773
of Koresh's followers.

1282
00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,316
He immediately goes

1283
00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,316
and tells Koresh

1284
00:37:57,358 --> 00:37:59,611
what was happening.

1285
00:37:59,652 --> 00:38:00,987
That morning,

1286
00:38:01,029 --> 00:38:04,241
David said

1287
00:38:01,029 --> 00:38:04,241
that we had information

1288
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,618
that there was going

1289
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,618
to be a raid today.

1290
00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,289
The men were arming themselves

1291
00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,289
and the women were told

1292
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:16,044
to go back to their rooms

1293
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:16,044
and bunker down.

1294
00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504
BUFORD:

1295
00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504
We were going to be confronting

1296
00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504
150 people

1297
00:38:18,546 --> 00:38:21,049
on a very large compound.

1298
00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:23,551
They had 45 minutes

1299
00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:23,551
to prepare for us

1300
00:38:23,593 --> 00:38:27,264
and began firing on us

1301
00:38:23,593 --> 00:38:27,264
as soon as we got there.

1302
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:33,853
I heard an M60 machine gun

1303
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:33,853
being fired.

1304
00:38:33,895 --> 00:38:37,857
Then I heard the A.K.-47s.

1305
00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:39,859
And then I heard

1306
00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:39,859
the 50-calibers,

1307
00:38:39,901 --> 00:38:42,862
just a brutal, brutal weapon.

1308
00:38:42,904 --> 00:38:46,365
(gunfire banging and popping)

1309
00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:49,410
There's no doubt these people

1310
00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:49,410
were trying to kill us.

1311
00:38:49,452 --> 00:38:52,371
(gunfire continuing)

1312
00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:55,208
The firefight went on

1313
00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:55,208
for 2 1/2 hours.

1314
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:59,171
And when they finally agreed

1315
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:59,171
to a ceasefire,

1316
00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:02,966
we were able to get our people

1317
00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:02,966
and get out.

1318
00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:03,967
MAN:

1319
00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:03,967
Yeah, this is Lynch.

1320
00:39:04,009 --> 00:39:04,968
KORESH:

1321
00:39:04,009 --> 00:39:04,968
Hey, Lynch?

1322
00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:06,469
LYNCH:

1323
00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:06,469
Yeah.

1324
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971
KORESH:

1325
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971
That's kind of

1326
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971
a funny name there.

1327
00:39:08,013 --> 00:39:09,347
Now, listen, now...

1328
00:39:09,388 --> 00:39:10,389
LYNCH:

1329
00:39:09,388 --> 00:39:10,389
Now, who am I speaking with?

1330
00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:11,599
KORESH:

1331
00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:11,599
This is David Koresh.

1332
00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:12,600
LYNCH:

1333
00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:12,600
Okay, David.

1334
00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:13,810
KORESH:

1335
00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:13,810
The notorious.

1336
00:39:13,852 --> 00:39:15,645
What'd you guys do that for?

1337
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440
LYNCH:

1338
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440
Well, David, what, this,

1339
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440
what I'm doing is,

1340
00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:21,776
I'm trying to establish some

1341
00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:21,776
communication links with you.

1342
00:39:21,818 --> 00:39:22,819
KORESH:

1343
00:39:21,818 --> 00:39:22,819
No, no, no, no, no.

1344
00:39:22,861 --> 00:39:23,820
Let me tell you something.

1345
00:39:23,862 --> 00:39:24,988
LYNCH:

1346
00:39:23,862 --> 00:39:24,988
Yes, sir.

1347
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:26,198
KORESH:

1348
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:26,198
You see, you brought

1349
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,406
a bunch of guys out here

1350
00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,408
and you killed

1351
00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,408
some of my children.

1352
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:31,036
We told you we wanted to talk.

1353
00:39:31,077 --> 00:39:32,578
How come you guys had

1354
00:39:31,077 --> 00:39:32,578
to be ATF agents?

1355
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,998
How come you try to be so big

1356
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,998
all the time?

1357
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,499
LYNCH:

1358
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,499
Okay, David...

1359
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210
KORESH:

1360
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210
Now there's a bunch

1361
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210
of us dead.

1362
00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:39,585
There's a bunch

1363
00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:39,585
of you guys dead.

1364
00:39:39,627 --> 00:39:41,420
Now, now that's your fault.

1365
00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422
LYNCH:

1366
00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422
Okay, let's, let's try

1367
00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422
to resolve this now.

1368
00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,425
Tell me this,

1369
00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,425
now, you have casualties.

1370
00:39:46,467 --> 00:39:47,886
How many casualties?

1371
00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:49,637
Do you want to try

1372
00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:49,637
to work something out?

1373
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,516
ATF is pulling back,

1374
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,516
we're trying to, uh...

1375
00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,435
KORESH:

1376
00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,435
Why didn't you do that first?

1377
00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192
HANCOCK:

1378
00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192
By the end of this shootout,

1379
00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192
four ATF agents were dead,

1380
00:40:02,234 --> 00:40:03,943
more than a dozen were wounded.

1381
00:40:03,985 --> 00:40:08,031
And inside, five Davidians

1382
00:40:03,985 --> 00:40:08,031
were dead

1383
00:40:08,073 --> 00:40:09,741
and David Koresh was wounded.

1384
00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:11,492
MAN:

1385
00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:11,492
Okay, then, move out.

1386
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125
BUFORD:

1387
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125
There really wasn't much

1388
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125
organization as to how we left.

1389
00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:20,877
The three team leaders,

1390
00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:20,877
all of us,

1391
00:40:20,919 --> 00:40:23,380
were wounded very badly.

1392
00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:29,094
I was actually put in a blanket

1393
00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:29,094
and placed on the hood of a car,

1394
00:40:29,135 --> 00:40:31,679
and, uh...

1395
00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:36,475
I don't remember anything about

1396
00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:36,475
the... the trip out, actually.

1397
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856
HANCOCK:

1398
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856
American law enforcement had

1399
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856
never seen anything like this.

1400
00:40:41,898 --> 00:40:44,776
They had never had

1401
00:40:41,898 --> 00:40:44,776
this kind of loss.

1402
00:40:44,817 --> 00:40:50,823
They had never been met

1403
00:40:44,817 --> 00:40:50,823
with this kind of resistance.

1404
00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:52,992
There was shock,

1405
00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:52,992
there was anger,

1406
00:40:53,034 --> 00:40:57,580
and there was uncertainty.

1407
00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:59,665
REPORTER:

1408
00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:59,665
Tragedy tonight in Waco, Texas.

1409
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,543
At least four federal agents

1410
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,543
and a member of a cult group

1411
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:06,505
are dead after an hour-long

1412
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:06,505
gun battle at the cult's ranch.

1413
00:41:06,547 --> 00:41:08,841
14 other agents were

1414
00:41:06,547 --> 00:41:08,841
wounded in the shootout

1415
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,761
that started when law officers

1416
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,761
tried to enter the compound.

1417
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224
MAN (over loudspeaker):

1418
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224
David Koresh, pick up

1419
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224
the phone.

1420
00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:19,311
The negotiators

1421
00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:19,311
want to speak with you.

1422
00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519
RICKS:

1423
00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519
The tactic

1424
00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519
from the very beginning

1425
00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:24,190
was trying to negotiate

1426
00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:24,190
a resolution.

1427
00:41:24,232 --> 00:41:27,444
We were willing to spend

1428
00:41:24,232 --> 00:41:27,444
as long as possible

1429
00:41:27,485 --> 00:41:28,736
to try to get the people out.

1430
00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:32,531
And particularly,

1431
00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:32,531
we would focus on the children,

1432
00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:36,995
trying to get the children

1433
00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:36,995
out of there.

1434
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623
MAN:

1435
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623
And starting off the evening

1436
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623
of the 28th of February,

1437
00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:41,833
we were successful.

1438
00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:46,045
We were starting

1439
00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:46,045
to get kids out.

1440
00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,007
But we couldn't fathom

1441
00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,007
how in the world

1442
00:41:49,048 --> 00:41:53,219
these parents were so latched

1443
00:41:49,048 --> 00:41:53,219
onto David

1444
00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:55,805
that they would abandon

1445
00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:55,805
their children.

1446
00:41:58,766 --> 00:42:00,310
We took videotapes of them

1447
00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:02,270
playing on the,

1448
00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:02,270
on the swing set,

1449
00:42:02,312 --> 00:42:04,314
and eating ice cream,

1450
00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:07,275
and just communing

1451
00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:07,275
with one another,

1452
00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:12,280
and we sent them back

1453
00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:12,280
into the compound.

1454
00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:14,282
We wanted

1455
00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:14,282
to do something tangible

1456
00:42:14,324 --> 00:42:15,783
so their parents could think,

1457
00:42:14,324 --> 00:42:15,783
you know,

1458
00:42:15,825 --> 00:42:20,163
"Maybe I need to come out

1459
00:42:15,825 --> 00:42:20,163
and reassume my responsibility

1460
00:42:20,205 --> 00:42:21,956
as a parent."

1461
00:42:21,998 --> 00:42:25,460
(kids greeting their parents)

1462
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586
SCHROEDER:

1463
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586
I didn't decide

1464
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586
to send my kids out.

1465
00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:32,258
My kids leaving

1466
00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:32,258
was part of the prophecy.

1467
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,720
I didn't know when it was going

1468
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,720
to happen,

1469
00:42:35,761 --> 00:42:38,473
but I knew it would happen.

1470
00:42:38,515 --> 00:42:39,849
They weren't David's children.

1471
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,561
MAN:

1472
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,561
He let children go

1473
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,855
up until there were

1474
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,855
no children left in there

1475
00:42:45,897 --> 00:42:47,482
except his children.

1476
00:42:47,524 --> 00:42:49,650
And he told us,

1477
00:42:47,524 --> 00:42:49,650
"This is the last one.

1478
00:42:49,692 --> 00:42:50,818
The rest are mine."

1479
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331
HANCOCK:

1480
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331
The negotiators needed

1481
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331
a different way

1482
00:43:03,373 --> 00:43:05,624
to approach the situation.

1483
00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:10,755
And so it was proposed to Koresh

1484
00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:10,755
that he make a recording

1485
00:43:10,796 --> 00:43:12,257
that could be broadcast

1486
00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:14,633
to bring his message

1487
00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:14,633
to the world,

1488
00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,720
if he would agree

1489
00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,720
to lead his people out.

1490
00:43:17,762 --> 00:43:21,099
Koresh agreed to do this.

1491
00:43:21,140 --> 00:43:22,434
Okay, here we go.

1492
00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:24,852
We're going to the tape

1493
00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:24,852
of David Koresh.

1494
00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,231
KORESH:

1495
00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,231
It's March 2, 1993.

1496
00:43:28,273 --> 00:43:30,649
My name is Dave Koresh.

1497
00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:34,653
I'm speaking to you

1498
00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:34,653
from Mt. Carmel Center.

1499
00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:38,408
In the Book of Revelation,

1500
00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:38,408
commentary states

1501
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:41,619
that what John has written

1502
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:41,619
in Scripture

1503
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:45,415
is nothing other than

1504
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:45,415
the revelation of Jesus Christ,

1505
00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:49,668
which God gave to Him

1506
00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:49,668
to show to His servants

1507
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:53,214
things which must shortly

1508
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:53,214
come to pass...

1509
00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:55,425
HANCOCK:

1510
00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:55,425
They're bringing in buses.

1511
00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,676
They're bringing in

1512
00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,676
all sorts of people

1513
00:43:57,718 --> 00:43:59,429
who are going to help process

1514
00:43:57,718 --> 00:43:59,429
the folks

1515
00:43:59,471 --> 00:44:01,431
coming out of the compound.

1516
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,642
They were convinced

1517
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,642
that he was going to come out.

1518
00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:08,354
RICKS:

1519
00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:08,354
We were at such a high level,

1520
00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,857
thinking that this thing

1521
00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,857
was going to end.

1522
00:44:11,899 --> 00:44:14,652
We were high-fiving each other,

1523
00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,363
then all of a sudden,

1524
00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,363
everything just stopped.

1525
00:44:17,405 --> 00:44:23,119
We were told that David received

1526
00:44:17,405 --> 00:44:23,119
a message from God

1527
00:44:23,161 --> 00:44:25,037
telling them to wait.

1528
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:26,456
SAGE:

1529
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:26,456
You went back on your word.

1530
00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:27,624
KORESH:

1531
00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:27,624
That is a lie!

1532
00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:28,625
SAGE:

1533
00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:28,625
That is not a lie.

1534
00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:30,502
KORESH:

1535
00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:30,502
That is a lie!

1536
00:44:30,543 --> 00:44:31,961
You will find out

1537
00:44:30,543 --> 00:44:31,961
in the Judgment...

1538
00:44:32,003 --> 00:44:33,671
SAGE:

1539
00:44:32,003 --> 00:44:33,671
You know as well as I do

1540
00:44:33,712 --> 00:44:35,714
that your challenge

1541
00:44:33,712 --> 00:44:35,714
to open these Seven Seals,

1542
00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:37,925
it's garbage, it's a false

1543
00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:37,925
hope, and you know this.

1544
00:44:37,967 --> 00:44:39,677
KORESH:

1545
00:44:37,967 --> 00:44:39,677
No, it's not.

1546
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:41,554
HANCOCK:

1547
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:41,554
Once he didn't come out,

1548
00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:44,723
the FBI's tactics pretty quickly

1549
00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:44,723
became aggressive.

1550
00:44:44,765 --> 00:44:48,353
The power was cut.

1551
00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:51,772
They blasted lights

1552
00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:51,772
at the compound.

1553
00:44:51,814 --> 00:44:54,775
They had brought in tanks,

1554
00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:59,905
so they drove

1555
00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:59,905
over Koresh's prized cars.

1556
00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:05,453
They also set up loudspeakers

1557
00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:05,453
and they began blasting

1558
00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:08,705
Nancy Sinatra's "These

1559
00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:08,705
Boots Are Made for Walking."

1560
00:45:08,747 --> 00:45:11,792
♪ One of these days these boots

1561
00:45:08,747 --> 00:45:11,792
are gonna walk all over you. ♪

1562
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672
HANCOCK:

1563
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672
Christmas carols,

1564
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672
the sounds of dying rabbits,

1565
00:45:15,712 --> 00:45:21,219
phones off the hook,

1566
00:45:15,712 --> 00:45:21,219
and even Tibetan monk chants.

1567
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,555
It was clear

1568
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,555
that the FBI was saying,

1569
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,724
"Hey, we're going to show you

1570
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,724
who's boss."

1571
00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395
REPORTER:

1572
00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395
The standoff outside

1573
00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395
the Branch Davidian compound

1574
00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,771
has become a psychological

1575
00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,771
power struggle.

1576
00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:36,401
Now, sources tell CBS News

1577
00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:36,401
that federal agents don't plan

1578
00:45:36,442 --> 00:45:38,152
to let this go on indefinitely,

1579
00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,446
their frustration level

1580
00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,446
is very high,

1581
00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,781
and if negotiations

1582
00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,781
are not more fruitful,

1583
00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:44,867
they may take action

1584
00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:44,867
by this weekend.

1585
00:45:44,909 --> 00:45:46,369
Dan?

1586
00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787
RICKS:

1587
00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787
The story kept growing

1588
00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787
and growing.

1589
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:53,668
And the press initially

1590
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:53,668
was very supportive

1591
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:54,960
of what we were doing,

1592
00:45:55,002 --> 00:45:56,254
and very understanding,

1593
00:45:56,295 --> 00:45:58,797
but as the days went on,

1594
00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,925
they started becoming

1595
00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,925
more demanding.

1596
00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,137
They were saying, "After all,

1597
00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,137
they've killed four ATF agents.

1598
00:46:05,179 --> 00:46:09,808
Why are you just sitting back

1599
00:46:05,179 --> 00:46:09,808
and letting them do this?"

1600
00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,686
We are not going

1601
00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,686
to be jerked around.

1602
00:46:11,728 --> 00:46:14,939
We will take whatever action

1603
00:46:11,728 --> 00:46:14,939
is necessary to get it resolved.

1604
00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,816
And again, our ultimate goal

1605
00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,816
from day one

1606
00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,236
is to get it resolved

1607
00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,236
peacefully.

1608
00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:23,615
It was probably the number-one

1609
00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:23,615
story in the United States,

1610
00:46:23,656 --> 00:46:26,451
and many of the right-wing

1611
00:46:23,656 --> 00:46:26,451
Patriot types

1612
00:46:26,492 --> 00:46:27,826
started showing up, as well.

1613
00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:33,374
They thought this was

1614
00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:33,374
only about seizing guns,

1615
00:46:33,416 --> 00:46:35,543
about ATF attacking a church

1616
00:46:35,585 --> 00:46:39,213
because they believed

1617
00:46:35,585 --> 00:46:39,213
in possessing guns.

1618
00:46:39,255 --> 00:46:42,550
They didn't manage to get

1619
00:46:39,255 --> 00:46:42,550
into the press conferences,

1620
00:46:42,592 --> 00:46:45,637
but somebody else did.

1621
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680
HANCOCK:

1622
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680
Louis Beam, the white

1623
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680
supremacist

1624
00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,265
and former Klan leader,

1625
00:46:49,307 --> 00:46:53,561
showed up and presented himself

1626
00:46:49,307 --> 00:46:53,561
as a credentialed reporter.

1627
00:46:53,603 --> 00:46:56,188
Are we seeing the emergence

1628
00:46:53,603 --> 00:46:56,188
of a police state

1629
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:57,814
in The United States?

1630
00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,067
We figured out who he was

1631
00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,067
pretty quickly.

1632
00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:03,904
He'd previously been on the

1633
00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:03,904
FBI's top ten most wanted list.

1634
00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,865
And I asked them if they're

1635
00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,865
going to have a police state,

1636
00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:09,702
and, uh, they don't want

1637
00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:09,702
to hear about police state,

1638
00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:14,290
ATF black-booted, black-suited,

1639
00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:14,290
black-helmeted troopers

1640
00:47:14,332 --> 00:47:15,874
carrying guns,

1641
00:47:14,332 --> 00:47:15,874
assaulting people.

1642
00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:17,834
Mr. Beam?

1643
00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:17,834
Let me see this...

1644
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881
ZESKIND:

1645
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881
White supremacists, like Beam,

1646
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881
saw in this standoff

1647
00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:26,093
the same issues that they

1648
00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:26,093
had decided were important

1649
00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:27,679
with Randy Weaver.

1650
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,391
The Branch Davidians

1651
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,391
were not white supremacists.

1652
00:47:32,433 --> 00:47:34,893
But now a broader section

1653
00:47:32,433 --> 00:47:34,893
of the far right

1654
00:47:34,935 --> 00:47:37,647
sees itself in Waco, and says,

1655
00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:41,609
"We're being suppressed

1656
00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:41,609
for our beliefs and our guns."

1657
00:47:41,651 --> 00:47:44,320
Up to the top of the hill,

1658
00:47:41,651 --> 00:47:44,320
them two white...

1659
00:47:44,362 --> 00:47:45,988
Little white buildings

1660
00:47:44,362 --> 00:47:45,988
up there.

1661
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910
HANCOCK:

1662
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910
There was a hill that was about

1663
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910
three miles from Mt. Carmel.

1664
00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,954
It was on a rise

1665
00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,954
that was high enough

1666
00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:58,875
that you could just barely see

1667
00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:58,875
Mt. Carmel in the distance.

1668
00:47:58,917 --> 00:48:01,170
This was as close

1669
00:47:58,917 --> 00:48:01,170
as members of the public

1670
00:48:01,212 --> 00:48:04,632
could get to the standoff.

1671
00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,509
WOMAN:

1672
00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,509
You're next, you're next!

1673
00:48:06,551 --> 00:48:08,093
Wake up and understand!

1674
00:48:08,135 --> 00:48:09,804
You're next!

1675
00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391
HANCOCK:

1676
00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391
All sorts of folks felt moved

1677
00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391
to come down

1678
00:48:13,432 --> 00:48:15,643
to see what was going on

1679
00:48:13,432 --> 00:48:15,643
at Waco.

1680
00:48:25,319 --> 00:48:28,406
Just, just arrived today.

1681
00:48:28,447 --> 00:48:29,948
Just, somebody told me

1682
00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:31,450
a lot of people are scared

1683
00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:31,450
to put something on,

1684
00:48:31,492 --> 00:48:32,577
you know, like this.

1685
00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,953
HANCOCK:

1686
00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,953
Timothy McVeigh

1687
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,956
had already apparently

1688
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,956
been very concerned

1689
00:48:37,998 --> 00:48:40,959
about what had happened

1690
00:48:37,998 --> 00:48:40,959
at Ruby Ridge.

1691
00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:44,255
So he came down to Waco

1692
00:48:44,296 --> 00:48:45,964
and sold bumper stickers

1693
00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:51,554
with pro-gun, anti-government

1694
00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:51,554
slogans.

1695
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,931
He saw the raid

1696
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,931
as clear evidence

1697
00:48:54,973 --> 00:48:56,975
of what the government would do

1698
00:48:57,017 --> 00:49:01,188
to try to confiscate guns

1699
00:48:57,017 --> 00:49:01,188
and persecute gun owners.

1700
00:49:03,023 --> 00:49:05,984
HERBECK:

1701
00:49:03,023 --> 00:49:05,984
Tim McVeigh loved guns.

1702
00:49:06,026 --> 00:49:07,986
When he was a kid,

1703
00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,323
his grandfather taught him

1704
00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,323
all about guns:

1705
00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:16,078
the safe handling of guns

1706
00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:16,078
and the rights of gun owners.

1707
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,791
They would go out

1708
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,791
and shoot together,

1709
00:49:19,832 --> 00:49:22,418
go to target practice.

1710
00:49:22,460 --> 00:49:24,879
He just loved guns,

1711
00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:28,965
and the whole belief

1712
00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:28,965
about a man owning guns.

1713
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681
MAN:

1714
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681
Pendleton, New York,

1715
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681
was white suburbia.

1716
00:49:35,723 --> 00:49:37,767
It's near Buffalo.

1717
00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:42,062
It's where generations

1718
00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:42,062
of the McVeigh family had lived.

1719
00:49:42,104 --> 00:49:43,564
Growing up,

1720
00:49:43,606 --> 00:49:45,023
Tim loved superheroes.

1721
00:49:45,065 --> 00:49:47,735
He had a huge comic book

1722
00:49:45,065 --> 00:49:47,735
collection,

1723
00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:51,405
he liked Soldier of Fortune

1724
00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:51,405
magazine,

1725
00:49:51,447 --> 00:49:54,158
and he hated bullies.

1726
00:49:54,199 --> 00:49:58,036
Tim was very skinny and tall,

1727
00:49:58,078 --> 00:50:03,041
and in high school, he was known

1728
00:49:58,078 --> 00:50:03,041
as "Noodle" McVeigh.

1729
00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:08,380
That was the beginning

1730
00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:08,380
of a lifelong hatred of bullies.

1731
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052
HERBECK:

1732
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052
After high school,

1733
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052
he went into the Army.

1734
00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:19,684
He just couldn't seem to

1735
00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:19,684
find the right path to a career.

1736
00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:23,771
But the other reason

1737
00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:23,771
was he loved guns.

1738
00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:26,106
It gave him access

1739
00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:26,106
to all kinds of guns

1740
00:50:26,148 --> 00:50:31,445
and other weapons and he was

1741
00:50:26,148 --> 00:50:31,445
like a kid in a candy store.

1742
00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073
MCVEIGH:

1743
00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073
I was an admitted gun enthusiast

1744
00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073
and so you can't go wrong

1745
00:50:35,115 --> 00:50:36,617
both brushing up your skills

1746
00:50:36,659 --> 00:50:39,119
and, hell, the Army

1747
00:50:36,659 --> 00:50:39,119
is free ammunition.

1748
00:50:39,161 --> 00:50:40,788
So I wanted to get out

1749
00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,748
and experience

1750
00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,748
the rest of the world.

1751
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,126
I wanted to get out of my

1752
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,126
isolation of Pendleton.

1753
00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091
MICHEL:

1754
00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091
The Army provided Tim McVeigh

1755
00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091
with a place where he fit in.

1756
00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:58,096
He was the top gun at Fort Riley

1757
00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:58,096
in his Bradley fighting vehicle.

1758
00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,977
His supervisors took

1759
00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,977
notice of him.

1760
00:51:03,019 --> 00:51:06,104
He was a leader in the Army.

1761
00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:11,067
And then he goes over to Iraq

1762
00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:11,067
for the first Gulf War.

1763
00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114
HERBECK:

1764
00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114
It was in the war that McVeigh

1765
00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114
first started

1766
00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,618
to become disillusioned

1767
00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,618
with the military

1768
00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,413
and the United States

1769
00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,413
government.

1770
00:51:22,454 --> 00:51:27,125
When he killed Iraqi soldiers,

1771
00:51:27,167 --> 00:51:30,880
he didn't feel the exhilaration

1772
00:51:27,167 --> 00:51:30,880
that he thought he would.

1773
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300
POTOK:

1774
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300
He took a very, very long

1775
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300
sniper shot

1776
00:51:35,342 --> 00:51:37,302
and killed an Iraqi soldier.

1777
00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,180
And he describes seeing

1778
00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,180
this man's head explode.

1779
00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:45,728
And he could not see

1780
00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:45,728
the reason for it.

1781
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:47,021
He could not really understand

1782
00:51:47,063 --> 00:51:49,356
what the United States

1783
00:51:47,063 --> 00:51:49,356
was doing there.

1784
00:51:49,398 --> 00:51:51,609
MCVEIGH: My overall experience

1785
00:51:49,398 --> 00:51:51,609
in the Gulf War

1786
00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:55,153
taught me that these people were

1787
00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:55,153
just that, they were people.

1788
00:51:55,195 --> 00:51:57,698
They were human beings

1789
00:51:55,195 --> 00:51:57,698
at the core,

1790
00:51:57,740 --> 00:51:59,157
they were no different than me.

1791
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,702
Then I had to reconcile that

1792
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,702
with the fact

1793
00:52:01,744 --> 00:52:05,706
that, well, I killed them.

1794
00:52:05,748 --> 00:52:09,125
MICHEL:

1795
00:52:05,748 --> 00:52:09,125
He's truly conflicted.

1796
00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:12,421
He sees the American government

1797
00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:12,421
as a bully.

1798
00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:19,095
But they summon him home for

1799
00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:19,095
ranger school, special forces.

1800
00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:23,265
And he was willing to put aside

1801
00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:23,265
his anti-government views

1802
00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:28,854
in order to become, you know,

1803
00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:28,854
the ultimate soldier.

1804
00:52:28,896 --> 00:52:31,649
But he's not in top-notch

1805
00:52:28,896 --> 00:52:31,649
physical shape

1806
00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:36,821
and, to his embarrassment,

1807
00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:36,821
washes out of rangers school.

1808
00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:41,199
And the disillusionment

1809
00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:41,199
compounds itself.

1810
00:52:41,241 --> 00:52:44,912
He stayed around the Army

1811
00:52:41,241 --> 00:52:44,912
for a few more months,

1812
00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,205
but his heart just

1813
00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,205
wasn't in it anymore.

1814
00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:52,920
He went back home and

1815
00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:52,920
he thought it would be easy

1816
00:52:52,962 --> 00:52:56,715
to get a good job because

1817
00:52:52,962 --> 00:52:56,715
of his Army experience,

1818
00:52:56,757 --> 00:52:59,217
but he found that it wasn't.

1819
00:52:59,259 --> 00:53:02,220
Failure was eating at him.

1820
00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:06,558
He told us that "I feel like I

1821
00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:06,558
reached a pinnacle in the Army

1822
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,981
and then after that everything

1823
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,981
was just mediocrity."

1824
00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777
BEN FENWICK:

1825
00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777
He becomes more and more

1826
00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777
disaffected.

1827
00:53:16,819 --> 00:53:19,237
He becomes more and

1828
00:53:16,819 --> 00:53:19,237
more strident.

1829
00:53:19,279 --> 00:53:23,408
He began paying attention to the

1830
00:53:19,279 --> 00:53:23,408
really far-off conspiracies,

1831
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:25,369
like that the United Nations

1832
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:25,369
was going to take over

1833
00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:31,917
the United States, and he

1834
00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:31,917
totally bought into them.

1835
00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:35,713
And he also

1836
00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:35,713
becomes very influenced

1837
00:53:35,754 --> 00:53:38,924
by  The Turner Diaries.

1838
00:53:38,966 --> 00:53:41,259
He becomes just gripped

1839
00:53:38,966 --> 00:53:41,259
by this novel.

1840
00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683
HERBECK:

1841
00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683
He was really interested

1842
00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683
in this character, Earl Turner,

1843
00:53:47,725 --> 00:53:50,268
and his antigovernment views

1844
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:55,191
and his feeling that you needed

1845
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:55,191
to take drastic action

1846
00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:57,233
to make the government

1847
00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:57,233
take notice.

1848
00:53:59,277 --> 00:54:02,280
And then Ruby Ridge happened.

1849
00:54:02,322 --> 00:54:06,326
And Ruby Ridge absolutely

1850
00:54:02,322 --> 00:54:06,326
enraged McVeigh.

1851
00:54:06,368 --> 00:54:08,204
He felt it was murder.

1852
00:54:08,244 --> 00:54:10,288
He felt it was all about

1853
00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:14,085
attacking the rights of people

1854
00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:14,085
to own guns.

1855
00:54:16,336 --> 00:54:17,796
POTOK:

1856
00:54:16,336 --> 00:54:17,796
He was not happy.

1857
00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:19,381
He wasn't getting along

1858
00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:19,381
with his family.

1859
00:54:19,423 --> 00:54:21,299
He didn't have a girlfriend.

1860
00:54:21,341 --> 00:54:26,304
He took his old beat-up car and

1861
00:54:21,341 --> 00:54:26,304
essentially began an odyssey,

1862
00:54:26,346 --> 00:54:28,766
traveling around the western

1863
00:54:26,346 --> 00:54:28,766
parts of the country,

1864
00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:32,310
kind of absorbing more and

1865
00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:32,310
more and more of this ideology.

1866
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:36,607
And probably the single

1867
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:36,607
most important place

1868
00:54:36,648 --> 00:54:41,653
where ideas of the radical right

1869
00:54:36,648 --> 00:54:41,653
were spread were gun shows.

1870
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325
LEVITAS:

1871
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325
Gun shows were sometimes more

1872
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325
than just gun shows.

1873
00:54:47,367 --> 00:54:51,163
The antigovernment message,

1874
00:54:47,367 --> 00:54:51,163
which cloaked itself

1875
00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,875
in the paraphernalia

1876
00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,875
of patriotism,

1877
00:54:54,917 --> 00:55:00,422
was promoted and peddled

1878
00:54:54,917 --> 00:55:00,422
at gun shows all over.

1879
00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843
ZESKIND:

1880
00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843
There were a number of people

1881
00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:07,138
who traveled from gun

1882
00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:07,138
show to gun show,

1883
00:55:07,179 --> 00:55:08,513
selling and trading,

1884
00:55:08,555 --> 00:55:12,350
and Timothy McVeigh

1885
00:55:08,555 --> 00:55:12,350
became one of these people.

1886
00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:15,896
And in the process

1887
00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:15,896
he met white supremacists

1888
00:55:15,938 --> 00:55:17,355
and talked to them.

1889
00:55:17,397 --> 00:55:19,191
He sold  The Turner Diaries.

1890
00:55:19,233 --> 00:55:22,987
He became embroiled

1891
00:55:19,233 --> 00:55:22,987
in the larger movement.

1892
00:55:24,155 --> 00:55:28,117
MICHEL:

1893
00:55:24,155 --> 00:55:28,117
And then he shows up at Waco.

1894
00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,368
He can't believe it,

1895
00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,368
that, you know,

1896
00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:36,000
American citizens are being held

1897
00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:36,000
there by government agents.

1898
00:55:37,251 --> 00:55:39,837
And it rivets his attention.

1899
00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:42,298
MCVEIGH:

1900
00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:42,298
Who were the aggressors?

1901
00:55:42,338 --> 00:55:45,843
Koresh wasn't giving in,

1902
00:55:42,338 --> 00:55:45,843
that's true,

1903
00:55:45,884 --> 00:55:48,344
but the FBI were the aggressors,

1904
00:55:45,884 --> 00:55:48,344
okay?

1905
00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:53,976
Everything they do exudes

1906
00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:53,976
that they are at war.

1907
00:55:54,018 --> 00:55:56,270
They're a military force at war.

1908
00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:59,231
The thing is,

1909
00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:59,231
who are they at war with?

1910
00:55:59,273 --> 00:56:03,194
Well, they're at war

1911
00:55:59,273 --> 00:56:03,194
with the American people.

1912
00:56:03,235 --> 00:56:05,904
In Waco, Texas,

1913
00:56:03,235 --> 00:56:05,904
the 40th day of the siege

1914
00:56:05,946 --> 00:56:07,906
at David Koresh's compound

1915
00:56:05,946 --> 00:56:07,906
is ending

1916
00:56:07,948 --> 00:56:09,574
just like the other 39--

1917
00:56:09,616 --> 00:56:12,368
with Koresh and his followers

1918
00:56:09,616 --> 00:56:12,368
on the inside,

1919
00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:15,413
and federal agents outside

1920
00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:15,413
waiting for something to happen.

1921
00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:18,416
MAN:

1922
00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:18,416
David Koresh, pick up the phone.

1923
00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,086
The negotiators want to speak

1924
00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,086
with you.

1925
00:56:21,128 --> 00:56:24,006
SAGE:

1926
00:56:21,128 --> 00:56:24,006
As the negotiations continued,

1927
00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:28,384
the productivity of those

1928
00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:28,384
negotiations diminished,

1929
00:56:28,426 --> 00:56:32,430
mainly, I think, because David

1930
00:56:28,426 --> 00:56:32,430
was done sending out the people

1931
00:56:32,472 --> 00:56:33,724
that he intended to send out.

1932
00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939
KAT SCHROEDER:

1933
00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939
Those of us that left were

1934
00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939
leaving because

1935
00:56:40,981 --> 00:56:45,194
we were not good for the group.

1936
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:49,907
We were not going to help

1937
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:49,907
the group ascend.

1938
00:56:49,948 --> 00:56:52,784
So we were kicked out.

1939
00:56:56,412 --> 00:57:03,337
The last person came out of that

1940
00:56:56,412 --> 00:57:03,337
compound on the 21st of March.

1941
00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:09,218
The last child came out

1942
00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:09,218
the 5th of March.

1943
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:12,763
We were in a very difficult

1944
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:12,763
situation.

1945
00:57:12,804 --> 00:57:15,515
You know, you guys, you guys,

1946
00:57:12,804 --> 00:57:15,515
you do it your way,

1947
00:57:15,557 --> 00:57:16,892
I do it my way.

1948
00:57:16,934 --> 00:57:18,476
You're going to argue with me,

1949
00:57:18,518 --> 00:57:20,271
you catch me on the side

1950
00:57:18,518 --> 00:57:20,271
of the road somewhere,

1951
00:57:20,312 --> 00:57:21,688
and you come and argue with me.

1952
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,815
You come pointing guns

1953
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,815
in the direction of my wives

1954
00:57:23,857 --> 00:57:28,862
and my kids, dammit, I'll meet

1955
00:57:23,857 --> 00:57:28,862
you at the door any time.

1956
00:57:28,904 --> 00:57:30,948
Nobody's fooled here.

1957
00:57:30,989 --> 00:57:33,409
We're not negotiating, okay?

1958
00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:35,869
That's over, if it ever existed.

1959
00:57:35,911 --> 00:57:40,457
We weren't accomplishing

1960
00:57:35,911 --> 00:57:40,457
anything.

1961
00:57:40,498 --> 00:57:42,126
We were just in a situation

1962
00:57:42,167 --> 00:57:44,128
that all it could do

1963
00:57:42,167 --> 00:57:44,128
was grow worse.

1964
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508
HANCOCK:

1965
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508
More and more people within

1966
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508
the bureau began to come around

1967
00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,636
to the idea that they needed

1968
00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,636
to do something

1969
00:57:52,677 --> 00:57:55,513
to force Koresh's hand.

1970
00:57:55,555 --> 00:58:00,518
So the FBI went to the attorney

1971
00:57:55,555 --> 00:58:00,518
general, Janet Reno, with a plan

1972
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,189
to use armored vehicles

1973
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,189
to knock holes into the building

1974
00:58:04,231 --> 00:58:08,319
and spray in tear gas.

1975
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,736
Initially she refused it.

1976
00:58:09,778 --> 00:58:11,322
She asked for more information.

1977
00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:16,243
So the FBI went back

1978
00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:16,243
with testimony

1979
00:58:16,285 --> 00:58:18,703
from former Davidians

1980
00:58:16,285 --> 00:58:18,703
of child sexual abuse

1981
00:58:18,745 --> 00:58:21,539
going on in Mt. Carmel.

1982
00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:26,337
And she saw the videotape

1983
00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:26,337
evidence of these young girls

1984
00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:29,298
with these babies,

1985
00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:29,298
and it confirmed to her

1986
00:58:29,340 --> 00:58:30,548
that this was going on.

1987
00:58:32,426 --> 00:58:37,222
At that point,

1988
00:58:32,426 --> 00:58:37,222
Janet Reno approved the plan.

1989
00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:43,020
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

1990
00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:43,020
Everybody grab your mask.

1991
00:58:43,061 --> 00:58:45,563
Everybody grab your mask.

1992
00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:48,317
SAGE:

1993
00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:48,317
A number of times early on,

1994
00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:51,569
we had gotten court-authorized

1995
00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:51,569
permission

1996
00:58:51,611 --> 00:58:54,698
to insert microphones

1997
00:58:51,611 --> 00:58:54,698
into that building.

1998
00:58:54,739 --> 00:58:58,576
That morning,

1999
00:58:54,739 --> 00:58:58,576
we couldn't hear anything live

2000
00:58:58,618 --> 00:59:02,539
because there was too much

2001
00:58:58,618 --> 00:59:02,539
noise, too much ambient noise.

2002
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,835
But once the tapes are scrubbed,

2003
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,835
someone clearly says,

2004
00:59:06,877 --> 00:59:09,296
"Put on your masks."

2005
00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:12,632
Shortly after that,

2006
00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:12,632
you distinctly hear

2007
00:59:12,674 --> 00:59:15,677
orders to spread the fuel.

2008
00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198
SAGE:

2009
00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198
All the while our guys

2010
00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198
were inserting tear gas,

2011
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:37,449
they were spreading fuel.

2012
00:59:37,491 --> 00:59:40,369
All morning long.

2013
00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163
JAMAR:

2014
00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163
Had we heard that,

2015
00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163
"Spread the fuel,"

2016
00:59:43,205 --> 00:59:44,789
we would have pulled back.

2017
00:59:44,831 --> 00:59:47,334
We would have pulled away.

2018
00:59:47,376 --> 00:59:49,253
And then, of course,

2019
00:59:47,376 --> 00:59:49,253
what happened,

2020
00:59:49,294 --> 00:59:52,089
it was just devastating

2021
00:59:49,294 --> 00:59:52,089
to everybody.

2022
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:54,049
As you can see on

2023
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:54,049
your screen,

2024
00:59:54,091 --> 00:59:56,843
there is a great deal of smoke

2025
00:59:54,091 --> 00:59:56,843
coming out from the building.

2026
00:59:56,885 --> 00:59:58,636
Let's go to Mike Capps...

2027
00:59:58,678 --> 01:00:00,347
we can also see some flames

2028
00:59:58,678 --> 01:00:00,347
there now.

2029
01:00:00,389 --> 01:00:01,723
Mike, what can you tell us?

2030
01:00:01,765 --> 01:00:03,141
What can you see?

2031
01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851
MIKE CAPPS:

2032
01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851
Well, Bonnie,

2033
01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851
for the last 15 minutes,

2034
01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:08,146
we've watched this M60 vehicle,

2035
01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:08,146
this combat engineering vehicle,

2036
01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,567
make large holes in the side

2037
01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,567
of this building

2038
01:00:11,649 --> 01:00:13,610
and pump tear gas in there.

2039
01:00:13,651 --> 01:00:16,780
Now we have a very large-scale

2040
01:00:13,651 --> 01:00:16,780
fire breaking out

2041
01:00:16,821 --> 01:00:18,532
on what must be the south side,

2042
01:00:18,574 --> 01:00:21,659
right near the front side

2043
01:00:18,574 --> 01:00:21,659
of this building.

2044
01:00:21,701 --> 01:00:23,579
POTOK:

2045
01:00:21,701 --> 01:00:23,579
I went out to the roadblock,

2046
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:27,082
and was looking through

2047
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:27,082
a friend's television camera,

2048
01:00:27,124 --> 01:00:29,167
and noticed little tiny

2049
01:00:27,124 --> 01:00:29,167
licks of flame,

2050
01:00:29,209 --> 01:00:30,377
first out of one side

2051
01:00:29,209 --> 01:00:30,377
of the building,

2052
01:00:30,419 --> 01:00:31,545
then out of the other.

2053
01:00:31,587 --> 01:00:35,549
And in a matter of

2054
01:00:31,587 --> 01:00:35,549
it seemed like seconds,

2055
01:00:35,591 --> 01:00:38,135
the building was engulfed.

2056
01:00:38,176 --> 01:00:41,138
You know, we all stood there

2057
01:00:38,176 --> 01:00:41,138
waiting to see

2058
01:00:41,179 --> 01:00:43,681
the people come out.

2059
01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:47,894
You know, there were 80 or 90

2060
01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:47,894
people in there.

2061
01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903
SAGE:

2062
01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903
As that fire continued to build,

2063
01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903
a few adults came out.

2064
01:00:56,945 --> 01:01:01,199
One of them had jumped out of

2065
01:00:56,945 --> 01:01:01,199
the second floor window,

2066
01:01:01,241 --> 01:01:04,702
and then she ran back

2067
01:01:01,241 --> 01:01:04,702
into the fire.

2068
01:01:04,744 --> 01:01:08,706
An agent started to run after

2069
01:01:04,744 --> 01:01:08,706
her, went into the building,

2070
01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:10,375
grabbed her,

2071
01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:10,375
and pulled her out,

2072
01:01:10,417 --> 01:01:12,710
and she was ready to ignite.

2073
01:01:12,752 --> 01:01:16,840
I mean, there was smoke

2074
01:01:12,752 --> 01:01:16,840
trailing off of her clothes.

2075
01:01:19,635 --> 01:01:21,678
Nine adults came out.

2076
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,682
Not one of them

2077
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,682
brought a child out.

2078
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441
JAMAR:

2079
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441
The part that we played

2080
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441
cannot be ignored.

2081
01:01:34,483 --> 01:01:36,734
We provoked the circumstances,

2082
01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:41,739
but David Koresh decided

2083
01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:41,739
who was going to die.

2084
01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:44,242
What happened was to serve

2085
01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:44,242
his purpose,

2086
01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:46,537
and that's the most

2087
01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:46,537
devastating thing to me,

2088
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,873
is I served his purpose

2089
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,873
to a terrible degree.

2090
01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:04,971
BUFORD:

2091
01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:04,971
When I saw the fire,

2092
01:02:05,013 --> 01:02:09,059
all I could think about

2093
01:02:05,013 --> 01:02:09,059
were the children in there.

2094
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,186
You know, the parents had made

2095
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,186
their own decisions,

2096
01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:13,063
but those kids didn't make

2097
01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:13,063
any decisions.

2098
01:02:15,315 --> 01:02:18,776
I literally bawled

2099
01:02:15,315 --> 01:02:18,776
when I saw it.

2100
01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:23,532
It was Armageddon,

2101
01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:23,532
just like he said it would be.

2102
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516
WRIGHT:

2103
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516
At Ruby Ridge, Americans saw

2104
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516
the deaths of two people.

2105
01:02:49,558 --> 01:02:53,437
But at Waco,

2106
01:02:49,558 --> 01:02:53,437
they saw massive deaths.

2107
01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:56,022
There were people who had

2108
01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:56,022
a legitimate argument

2109
01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:57,899
that there were all kinds

2110
01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:57,899
of mistakes made

2111
01:02:57,941 --> 01:02:59,817
and this could have ended

2112
01:02:57,941 --> 01:02:59,817
very differently.

2113
01:02:59,859 --> 01:03:04,030
But other people were saying

2114
01:02:59,859 --> 01:03:04,030
this was a government massacre

2115
01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:06,783
on a scale

2116
01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:06,783
nobody had seen before.

2117
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:13,331
It was certainly framed

2118
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:13,331
in this manner by the far right,

2119
01:03:13,373 --> 01:03:16,460
and the reaction

2120
01:03:13,373 --> 01:03:16,460
was almost immediate.

2121
01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:19,963
We have several witnesses

2122
01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:19,963
that say that they saw

2123
01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:22,591
25 to 30 people exiting out

2124
01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:22,591
these double doors

2125
01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:25,969
to escape the fire, and that

2126
01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:25,969
these people were gunned down

2127
01:03:26,010 --> 01:03:27,845
in cold blood

2128
01:03:26,010 --> 01:03:27,845
as they tried to escape.

2129
01:03:27,887 --> 01:03:32,434
There were several films made

2130
01:03:27,887 --> 01:03:32,434
by people on the radical right,

2131
01:03:32,476 --> 01:03:34,811
which claimed that this had been

2132
01:03:32,476 --> 01:03:34,811
a deliberate murder.

2133
01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856
HANCOCK:

2134
01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856
One of the

2135
01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856
earliest was a documentary

2136
01:03:38,898 --> 01:03:41,276
called  Waco: The Big Lie.

2137
01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,404
The crucial footage

2138
01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,404
that they used

2139
01:03:44,446 --> 01:03:46,072
was footage on the day

2140
01:03:44,446 --> 01:03:46,072
of the fire,

2141
01:03:46,114 --> 01:03:49,033
where they alleged that

2142
01:03:46,114 --> 01:03:49,033
if you looked at the footage

2143
01:03:49,075 --> 01:03:51,703
the right way,

2144
01:03:49,075 --> 01:03:51,703
that you could see

2145
01:03:51,745 --> 01:03:54,706
the tanks actually setting fire

2146
01:03:51,745 --> 01:03:54,706
to the building.

2147
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916
ARCHIVAL NARRATOR:

2148
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916
At the same time as fire

2149
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916
was already breaking out

2150
01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:59,252
in the back of the house,

2151
01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:59,252
as you just saw,

2152
01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,463
as this tank backs out,

2153
01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,463
flame can be seen

2154
01:04:01,505 --> 01:04:03,423
shooting from the front of it.

2155
01:04:03,465 --> 01:04:06,176
When someone could

2156
01:04:03,465 --> 01:04:06,176
package the footage

2157
01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:08,595
that had disturbed

2158
01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:08,595
everybody in America

2159
01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:14,184
with a potent message about,

2160
01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:14,184
you know, government atrocities,

2161
01:04:14,225 --> 01:04:16,353
it touched a chord.

2162
01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:19,981
You know, those who had a

2163
01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:19,981
tendency to doubt the government

2164
01:04:20,023 --> 01:04:23,568
were enraged.

2165
01:04:23,610 --> 01:04:26,904
HERBECK:

2166
01:04:23,610 --> 01:04:26,904
When the fire started at Waco,

2167
01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:30,908
Tim McVeigh was at a friend's

2168
01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:30,908
farmhouse up in Michigan.

2169
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:35,455
He was working on a vehicle

2170
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:35,455
out in the yard

2171
01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:38,375
and somebody yelled out,

2172
01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:38,375
"Tim, come in here.

2173
01:04:38,416 --> 01:04:39,876
You've got to see this on

2174
01:04:38,416 --> 01:04:39,876
television."

2175
01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421
MCVEIGH:

2176
01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421
I'm watching flames

2177
01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421
lick out windows,

2178
01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,383
and I'm watching

2179
01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,383
tanks ram walls,

2180
01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,302
and my eyes just welled up

2181
01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,302
in tears,

2182
01:04:49,344 --> 01:04:52,096
and tears started

2183
01:04:49,344 --> 01:04:52,096
coming down my cheeks

2184
01:04:52,138 --> 01:04:55,308
as I'm watching

2185
01:04:52,138 --> 01:04:55,308
this scene unfold.

2186
01:04:55,350 --> 01:04:57,894
I'm not going to shy away from

2187
01:04:55,350 --> 01:04:57,894
the word rage.

2188
01:04:57,935 --> 01:05:01,272
For me, I felt absolute rage.

2189
01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943
HERBECK:

2190
01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943
For Tim McVeigh,

2191
01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943
it was all happening

2192
01:05:05,985 --> 01:05:11,199
because of the U.S. government,

2193
01:05:05,985 --> 01:05:11,199
the biggest bully in the world.

2194
01:05:11,241 --> 01:05:13,451
(applause)

2195
01:05:13,493 --> 01:05:17,955
And just a few months later,

2196
01:05:13,493 --> 01:05:17,955
the Brady Bill passes.

2197
01:05:17,997 --> 01:05:23,253
It has a ban on several assault

2198
01:05:17,997 --> 01:05:23,253
weapons, long overdue.

2199
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798
HERBECK:

2200
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798
Like many people, Tim McVeigh

2201
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798
was convinced

2202
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,718
that the Brady Bill meant

2203
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,718
that the government

2204
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,889
was going to take guns away

2205
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,889
from law-abiding citizens.

2206
01:05:33,930 --> 01:05:35,973
A ban on handgun ownership

2207
01:05:36,015 --> 01:05:39,770
and restrictions on possession

2208
01:05:36,015 --> 01:05:39,770
of handguns by minors,

2209
01:05:39,811 --> 01:05:40,729
the beginning of reform

2210
01:05:40,771 --> 01:05:43,774
of our federal firearms

2211
01:05:40,771 --> 01:05:43,774
licensing systems.

2212
01:05:43,815 --> 01:05:45,859
(applause)

2213
01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822
LEVITAS:

2214
01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822
The combination of the perceived

2215
01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822
government assassination

2216
01:05:50,864 --> 01:05:52,031
of the Weaver family,

2217
01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:56,160
the perceived military

2218
01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:56,160
government murdering

2219
01:05:56,202 --> 01:06:01,082
its own citizens in Waco,

2220
01:05:56,202 --> 01:06:01,082
and then the Brady Bill,

2221
01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:04,001
the government coming after

2222
01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:04,001
your guns,

2223
01:06:04,043 --> 01:06:09,132
just exploded the recruitment

2224
01:06:04,043 --> 01:06:09,132
of anti-government extremists.

2225
01:06:09,173 --> 01:06:12,677
We have a government

2226
01:06:09,173 --> 01:06:12,677
that is on the verge

2227
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,639
of being completely out

2228
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,639
of control.

2229
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,684
They allow tyrants to come in

2230
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,684
with hooded masks on,

2231
01:06:19,726 --> 01:06:23,647
unidentified,

2232
01:06:19,726 --> 01:06:23,647
bust down your door.

2233
01:06:23,688 --> 01:06:26,608
It's happened all over America.

2234
01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527
PHIL DONAHUE:

2235
01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527
This is the new thing

2236
01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527
in America.

2237
01:06:29,569 --> 01:06:31,028
It's called the militia.

2238
01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:33,156
No, they say

2239
01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:33,156
they're not racist.

2240
01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:34,866
It's not just about guns

2241
01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:34,866
and possession of guns,

2242
01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:37,619
but the 2nd Amendment's

2243
01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:37,619
involved here, definitely.

2244
01:06:37,661 --> 01:06:39,120
They're proud of

2245
01:06:37,661 --> 01:06:39,120
their 2nd amendment.

2246
01:06:39,162 --> 01:06:43,040
And by God no constable is going

2247
01:06:39,162 --> 01:06:43,040
to come from some faraway place

2248
01:06:43,082 --> 01:06:45,376
and break their

2249
01:06:43,082 --> 01:06:45,376
door down.

2250
01:06:45,418 --> 01:06:47,420
They'll shoot 'em first.

2251
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760
ZESKIND:

2252
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760
There had been a spurt of growth

2253
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760
in militia organizations

2254
01:06:53,802 --> 01:06:55,971
after Ruby Ridge.

2255
01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:01,476
But Waco, and the Brady Bill,

2256
01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:01,476
accelerates the movement.

2257
01:07:01,518 --> 01:07:04,061
By the end of '93,

2258
01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:08,984
there was a huge underground of

2259
01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:08,984
armed white supremacist militias

2260
01:07:09,066 --> 01:07:13,780
all over the country,

2261
01:07:09,066 --> 01:07:13,780
all of them dedicated

2262
01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:16,700
to resistance

2263
01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:16,700
to the federal government.

2264
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915
HERBECK:

2265
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915
Tim McVeigh didn't actually

2266
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915
belong to a militia group

2267
01:07:23,957 --> 01:07:27,836
but he certainly

2268
01:07:23,957 --> 01:07:27,836
had the same opinions

2269
01:07:27,878 --> 01:07:30,797
about the government that many

2270
01:07:27,878 --> 01:07:30,797
of the militia groups had.

2271
01:07:32,757 --> 01:07:34,091
For Tim McVeigh,

2272
01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:38,346
it was all part of a massive

2273
01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:38,346
government conspiracy.

2274
01:07:38,388 --> 01:07:43,685
All these events,

2275
01:07:38,388 --> 01:07:43,685
they were all connected

2276
01:07:43,727 --> 01:07:48,231
and it was all leading down

2277
01:07:43,727 --> 01:07:48,231
a path that was going to end

2278
01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:51,609
with federal agents

2279
01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:51,609
coming to his home

2280
01:07:51,651 --> 01:07:54,988
and the homes of gun owners

2281
01:07:51,651 --> 01:07:54,988
all over America

2282
01:07:55,030 --> 01:08:00,035
and storming into those homes

2283
01:07:55,030 --> 01:08:00,035
and taking their guns away.

2284
01:08:02,161 --> 01:08:04,121
I think from that moment on,

2285
01:08:04,163 --> 01:08:08,125
he was trying to determine what

2286
01:08:04,163 --> 01:08:08,125
terrorist act to commit

2287
01:08:08,167 --> 01:08:10,879
against the U.S. government.

2288
01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728
WILLIAM PIERCE:

2289
01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728
"My day's work started a little

2290
01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728
before 5:00 yesterday

2291
01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,606
"when I began helping Ed Sanders

2292
01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,606
mix heating oil

2293
01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:35,152
with the ammonium nitrate

2294
01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:35,152
fertilizer in unit 8's garage."

2295
01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573
HERBECK:

2296
01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573
Tim McVeigh had read

2297
01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573
in  The Turner Diaries

2298
01:08:38,615 --> 01:08:42,326
of how, generally, you

2299
01:08:38,615 --> 01:08:42,326
could build a truck bomb.

2300
01:08:42,368 --> 01:08:46,163
He found other articles

2301
01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:51,377
that told him exactly

2302
01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:51,377
how to build a truck bomb.

2303
01:08:51,419 --> 01:08:55,214
He wanted to do what

2304
01:08:51,419 --> 01:08:55,214
Earl Turner did:

2305
01:08:55,256 --> 01:08:57,759
take down a government building.

2306
01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:09,813
McVeigh truly believed that

2307
01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:09,813
he had two comrades in arms

2308
01:09:09,854 --> 01:09:12,523
in Terry Nichols

2309
01:09:09,854 --> 01:09:12,523
and Michael Fortier.

2310
01:09:12,565 --> 01:09:16,193
They go back to the Army.

2311
01:09:16,235 --> 01:09:19,280
They all like

2312
01:09:16,235 --> 01:09:19,280
The Turner Diaries.

2313
01:09:19,322 --> 01:09:22,659
They all shared the same

2314
01:09:19,322 --> 01:09:22,659
antigovernment thoughts.

2315
01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,204
They all wanted to show

2316
01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,204
that somebody could attack

2317
01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:30,166
the U.S. government,

2318
01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:30,166
that it was that vulnerable.

2319
01:09:32,043 --> 01:09:36,380
To get started, they knew that

2320
01:09:32,043 --> 01:09:36,380
they needed the main ingredient,

2321
01:09:36,422 --> 01:09:38,967
which was fertilizer.

2322
01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223
POTOK:

2323
01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223
They start to buy bag after bag

2324
01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223
after bag of ammonium nitrate.

2325
01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:50,227
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols

2326
01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:50,227
break into a storage shed

2327
01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:55,316
at a quarry and they steal

2328
01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:55,316
these explosive Tovex sausages,

2329
01:09:55,358 --> 01:09:58,194
which will make the bomb

2330
01:09:55,358 --> 01:09:58,194
more powerful.

2331
01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824
HERBECK:

2332
01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824
It wasn't easy to get

2333
01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824
some of this stuff.

2334
01:10:02,866 --> 01:10:05,451
Some of the explosives

2335
01:10:02,866 --> 01:10:05,451
were not available

2336
01:10:05,493 --> 01:10:07,037
to the average citizen.

2337
01:10:07,078 --> 01:10:12,249
They spent months and months

2338
01:10:07,078 --> 01:10:12,249
getting the parts

2339
01:10:12,291 --> 01:10:14,585
of this bomb together.

2340
01:10:14,627 --> 01:10:18,339
Fortier's role was

2341
01:10:14,627 --> 01:10:18,339
very, very limited.

2342
01:10:18,381 --> 01:10:21,467
Nichols had a bigger role,

2343
01:10:21,509 --> 01:10:25,596
but, really, just following

2344
01:10:21,509 --> 01:10:25,596
orders from McVeigh.

2345
01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266
POTOK:

2346
01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266
And then, Tim McVeigh

2347
01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266
manages to get

2348
01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:34,689
some 55-gallon drums of

2349
01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:34,689
nitromethane racing fuel.

2350
01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:37,400
The bomb that was depicted

2351
01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:37,400
in  The Turner Diaries

2352
01:10:37,441 --> 01:10:39,276
was ammonium nitrate

2353
01:10:37,441 --> 01:10:39,276
and fuel oil.

2354
01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:44,866
McVeigh was going to amp up his

2355
01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:44,866
bomb really dramatically

2356
01:10:44,908 --> 01:10:48,036
by using this much, much

2357
01:10:44,908 --> 01:10:48,036
more volatile fuel.

2358
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417
HERBECK:

2359
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417
During this time

2360
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417
that he was driving around

2361
01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,293
getting his materials

2362
01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,293
for the bomb,

2363
01:10:56,335 --> 01:11:01,257
McVeigh was basically on this

2364
01:10:56,335 --> 01:11:01,257
anti-government odyssey.

2365
01:11:03,342 --> 01:11:12,309
He visited a militia compound,

2366
01:11:03,342 --> 01:11:12,309
he visited Area 51 in Roswell,

2367
01:11:12,351 --> 01:11:14,687
and he visited Waco.

2368
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152
FENWICK:

2369
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152
It was very important to him

2370
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152
to go bear witness

2371
01:11:21,194 --> 01:11:23,738
to what had happened,

2372
01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:28,284
to make himself feel that-that

2373
01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:28,284
place and that moment.

2374
01:11:33,581 --> 01:11:35,083
It was also around this time

2375
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:38,544
that he and Fortier and Nichols

2376
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:38,544
began selecting

2377
01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:42,173
what was going to be the target

2378
01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:42,173
of their bomb.

2379
01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801
WRIGHT:

2380
01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801
They went to Little Rock,

2381
01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801
Arkansas.

2382
01:11:44,842 --> 01:11:47,220
They went to Tulsa.

2383
01:11:47,262 --> 01:11:49,139
They went to Dallas.

2384
01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,476
They picked the Murrah Building

2385
01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,476
in Oklahoma City, in part,

2386
01:11:53,517 --> 01:11:55,019
because the ATF,

2387
01:11:55,061 --> 01:11:58,481
who had conducted the raid

2388
01:11:55,061 --> 01:11:58,481
on the Branch Davidians,

2389
01:11:58,522 --> 01:12:01,734
had an office in the building.

2390
01:12:01,776 --> 01:12:04,361
They thought it was

2391
01:12:01,776 --> 01:12:04,361
appropriately symbolic

2392
01:12:04,403 --> 01:12:05,947
that they would go after

2393
01:12:04,403 --> 01:12:05,947
somebody

2394
01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:08,283
who was directly connected

2395
01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:08,283
to Waco.

2396
01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455
FENWICK:

2397
01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455
The Murrah Building

2398
01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455
had numerous federal offices.

2399
01:12:14,497 --> 01:12:17,374
It had HUD, it had the ATF.

2400
01:12:17,416 --> 01:12:20,628
It had general accounting

2401
01:12:17,416 --> 01:12:20,628
offices.

2402
01:12:20,670 --> 01:12:23,047
It had military recruiters,

2403
01:12:23,089 --> 01:12:24,882
the Social Security

2404
01:12:23,089 --> 01:12:24,882
Administration,

2405
01:12:24,924 --> 01:12:26,217
the DEA was in there.

2406
01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761
And there is some question

2407
01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761
as to whether or not

2408
01:12:28,803 --> 01:12:32,056
McVeigh knew there was

2409
01:12:28,803 --> 01:12:32,056
a day care in there,

2410
01:12:32,098 --> 01:12:33,808
but he also kind of indicated

2411
01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:36,060
that it wouldn't have made

2412
01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:36,060
the difference anyway.

2413
01:12:37,436 --> 01:12:42,108
Michael Fortier began feeling

2414
01:12:37,436 --> 01:12:42,108
uneasy about doing this.

2415
01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:46,196
He suddenly visualized

2416
01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:46,196
what was going to happen.

2417
01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,200
He points out that there were

2418
01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,200
probably going to be

2419
01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:53,410
innocent people inside

2420
01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:53,410
that are going to die.

2421
01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290
WRIGHT:

2422
01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290
McVeigh told him,

2423
01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290
"There has to be a body count."

2424
01:12:57,332 --> 01:13:02,586
He said, "The government's not

2425
01:12:57,332 --> 01:13:02,586
going to sit up and take notice

2426
01:13:02,628 --> 01:13:04,047
unless there's a body count."

2427
01:13:04,088 --> 01:13:05,798
"They can always build

2428
01:13:04,088 --> 01:13:05,798
a new building,

2429
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,466
but a body count

2430
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,466
will get their attention."

2431
01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222
MCVEIGH:

2432
01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222
From a military perspective,

2433
01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222
to get a message across,

2434
01:13:12,263 --> 01:13:17,601
you need to hurt them

2435
01:13:12,263 --> 01:13:17,601
where they hurt the most.

2436
01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:19,770
The only way they're going

2437
01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:19,770
to feel something,

2438
01:13:19,812 --> 01:13:21,856
and the only way they're going

2439
01:13:19,812 --> 01:13:21,856
to get the message

2440
01:13:21,898 --> 01:13:24,359
is with a body count.

2441
01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447
MICHEL:

2442
01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447
Tim picks April 19

2443
01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447
for the bombing

2444
01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:35,494
because it will be the

2445
01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:35,494
anniversary of the fire at Waco.

2446
01:13:35,536 --> 01:13:39,207
On Easter Sunday,

2447
01:13:35,536 --> 01:13:39,207
three days before,

2448
01:13:39,249 --> 01:13:42,459
Tim McVeigh calls Terry Nichols

2449
01:13:39,249 --> 01:13:42,459
and says it's time.

2450
01:13:42,501 --> 01:13:47,215
HERBECK:

2451
01:13:42,501 --> 01:13:47,215
He and Nichols, separately,

2452
01:13:47,257 --> 01:13:52,136
drove from Kansas

2453
01:13:47,257 --> 01:13:52,136
to Oklahoma City.

2454
01:13:52,178 --> 01:13:55,806
McVeigh took his $300

2455
01:13:52,178 --> 01:13:55,806
getaway car

2456
01:13:55,848 --> 01:13:59,476
and stashed it in a little

2457
01:13:55,848 --> 01:13:59,476
parking lot.

2458
01:13:59,518 --> 01:14:03,647
He put a sign in the window,

2459
01:13:59,518 --> 01:14:03,647
"Please Do Not Tow,"

2460
01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:08,569
and then they

2461
01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:08,569
drove back to Kansas.

2462
01:14:08,611 --> 01:14:11,572
The next day McVeigh goes alone,

2463
01:14:08,611 --> 01:14:11,572
apparently,

2464
01:14:11,614 --> 01:14:14,325
to rent a truck

2465
01:14:11,614 --> 01:14:14,325
in Junction City,

2466
01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:18,495
the big Ryder truck

2467
01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:18,495
that he will use as a bomb.

2468
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207
HERSLEY:

2469
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207
They asked him:

2470
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207
"Do you need insurance on it?"

2471
01:14:21,249 --> 01:14:22,708
He said, "No, I won't need

2472
01:14:21,249 --> 01:14:22,708
any insurance."

2473
01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,127
And they said,

2474
01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,127
"Do you need any extra days?"

2475
01:14:24,168 --> 01:14:25,502
And he answered, "No,

2476
01:14:24,168 --> 01:14:25,502
I won't need any extra days."

2477
01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:29,506
We actually have him on video

2478
01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:29,506
coming in to the McDonald's

2479
01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,468
about a mile away from

2480
01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,468
where he picked up the truck.

2481
01:14:36,639 --> 01:14:40,310
HERBECK:

2482
01:14:36,639 --> 01:14:40,310
April 18 was bomb making day.

2483
01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:45,648
McVeigh drove the truck out

2484
01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:45,648
to Geary Lake State Park,

2485
01:14:45,689 --> 01:14:48,567
where they would assemble

2486
01:14:45,689 --> 01:14:48,567
the bomb.

2487
01:14:48,609 --> 01:14:50,987
He was extremely upset

2488
01:14:51,028 --> 01:14:53,697
because Nichols was starting

2489
01:14:51,028 --> 01:14:53,697
to get cold feet.

2490
01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:58,535
He threatened to kill Nichols

2491
01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:58,535
and his family

2492
01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:03,249
if Nichols refused to help him

2493
01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:03,249
with the final preparations.

2494
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003
MCVEIGH:

2495
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003
The bomb was primarily assembled

2496
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003
by myself,

2497
01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:09,088
with a little assistance

2498
01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:09,088
from another,

2499
01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,591
who was under duress

2500
01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,591
to assist me.

2501
01:15:12,633 --> 01:15:14,551
I was the one that primed

2502
01:15:12,633 --> 01:15:14,551
the charges,

2503
01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:18,097
that crimped the caps to

2504
01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:18,097
the fuse, primed each barrel,

2505
01:15:18,139 --> 01:15:20,516
made sure there was

2506
01:15:18,139 --> 01:15:20,516
redundant fusing systems.

2507
01:15:20,557 --> 01:15:23,311
And it only took three hours.

2508
01:15:23,353 --> 01:15:25,688
FENWICK:

2509
01:15:23,353 --> 01:15:25,688
After they get the bomb built,

2510
01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:28,858
Terry Nichols made it very clear

2511
01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:28,858
he was not going to join McVeigh

2512
01:15:28,899 --> 01:15:30,609
the morning of the bombing.

2513
01:15:30,651 --> 01:15:35,156
And so they said goodbye, shook

2514
01:15:30,651 --> 01:15:35,156
hands, Nichols wishes him luck,

2515
01:15:35,198 --> 01:15:38,534
and then he gets in the truck

2516
01:15:35,198 --> 01:15:38,534
and he drives south.

2517
01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251
HERBECK:

2518
01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251
He was nervous as he drove

2519
01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251
into Oklahoma City,

2520
01:15:48,252 --> 01:15:52,715
but I don't think

2521
01:15:48,252 --> 01:15:52,715
he ever second-guessed himself.

2522
01:15:52,756 --> 01:15:55,051
I don't think he ever thought

2523
01:15:52,756 --> 01:15:55,051
for a minute

2524
01:15:55,092 --> 01:15:57,761
that this was the wrong thing

2525
01:15:55,092 --> 01:15:57,761
to do.

2526
01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,059
When he got close

2527
01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,059
to the building,

2528
01:16:03,100 --> 01:16:05,436
he pulled the truck over,

2529
01:16:05,478 --> 01:16:09,648
and lit two different fuses

2530
01:16:05,478 --> 01:16:09,648
leading back to the bomb.

2531
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322
HERSLEY:

2532
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322
The last video that

2533
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322
we have of him was at 8:57

2534
01:16:16,364 --> 01:16:19,783
in front of the

2535
01:16:16,364 --> 01:16:19,783
Regency Tower Apartments.

2536
01:16:19,825 --> 01:16:22,119
At that point in time,

2537
01:16:19,825 --> 01:16:22,119
he was about

2538
01:16:22,161 --> 01:16:24,497
a block and a half

2539
01:16:22,161 --> 01:16:24,497
west of the Murrah Building.

2540
01:16:26,082 --> 01:16:28,376
NORFLEET:

2541
01:16:26,082 --> 01:16:28,376
As I was driving past,

2542
01:16:28,418 --> 01:16:31,003
I noticed this yellow

2543
01:16:28,418 --> 01:16:31,003
Ryder truck

2544
01:16:31,045 --> 01:16:35,299
pulled into the loading zone

2545
01:16:31,045 --> 01:16:35,299
in front of the building.

2546
01:16:35,341 --> 01:16:38,344
A young man got

2547
01:16:35,341 --> 01:16:38,344
out of the truck.

2548
01:16:38,386 --> 01:16:42,139
He had a military haircut

2549
01:16:38,386 --> 01:16:42,139
and the T-shirt, and I thought,

2550
01:16:42,181 --> 01:16:44,767
"Well, okay, that's a sergeant

2551
01:16:42,181 --> 01:16:44,767
or something

2552
01:16:44,808 --> 01:16:46,643
"checking into the command.

2553
01:16:46,685 --> 01:16:48,187
"But what in the world

2554
01:16:46,685 --> 01:16:48,187
is he doing

2555
01:16:48,229 --> 01:16:50,606
going away from the building?"

2556
01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028
MCVEIGH:

2557
01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028
I walked very slowly

2558
01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028
toward the YMCA.

2559
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:58,948
Once I got in the blind alley

2560
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:58,948
of the YMCA,

2561
01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,577
I did jog because I knew

2562
01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,577
nobody was looking.

2563
01:17:08,707 --> 01:17:11,627
(explosion)

2564
01:17:30,187 --> 01:17:31,647
FLOWERS:

2565
01:17:30,187 --> 01:17:31,647
Later that morning,

2566
01:17:31,688 --> 01:17:35,692
we went into the south side

2567
01:17:31,688 --> 01:17:35,692
of the building, not knowing

2568
01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,279
what we were fixing to walk

2569
01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,279
into was the daycare center.

2570
01:17:39,822 --> 01:17:42,074
The granite floor was

2571
01:17:39,822 --> 01:17:42,074
all busted and broken

2572
01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:45,244
and just, you know,

2573
01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:45,244
going every which way.

2574
01:17:45,286 --> 01:17:46,703
And as I'm fixing to go in,

2575
01:17:46,745 --> 01:17:50,707
one of the Oklahoma City

2576
01:17:46,745 --> 01:17:50,707
officers comes walking out

2577
01:17:50,749 --> 01:17:51,875
carrying a little boy.

2578
01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:53,586
It's where the elevators

2579
01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:53,586
used to be!

2580
01:17:53,628 --> 01:17:54,878
I can't.

2581
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,631
Let me have him.

2582
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,631
I can't.

2583
01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:57,756
FLOWERS:

2584
01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:57,756
And I just turned

2585
01:17:57,798 --> 01:18:01,594
and took a second breath and

2586
01:17:57,798 --> 01:18:01,594
went into the daycare center.

2587
01:18:04,597 --> 01:18:07,724
We were moving debris,

2588
01:18:04,597 --> 01:18:07,724
we were picking up boulders.

2589
01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:10,811
Literally everyone was digging

2590
01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:10,811
on their hands and knees,

2591
01:18:10,853 --> 01:18:12,396
trying to get to these kids.

2592
01:18:15,650 --> 01:18:18,277
(siren wailing)

2593
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322
GARRETT:

2594
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322
The children were coming out

2595
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322
one by one.

2596
01:18:21,364 --> 01:18:24,450
Brandon was severely injured.

2597
01:18:24,492 --> 01:18:27,495
So was Nekia.

2598
01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:32,082
Rebecca, um, just seemed to me,

2599
01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:32,082
and I...

2600
01:18:32,124 --> 01:18:34,627
it just seemed as though

2601
01:18:32,124 --> 01:18:34,627
she was just dipped in blood.

2602
01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,255
The next baby

2603
01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,255
that they brought out,

2604
01:18:38,297 --> 01:18:41,342
they went to lay

2605
01:18:38,297 --> 01:18:41,342
this baby on the ground.

2606
01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:46,430
They had these perfectly folded

2607
01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:46,430
white sheets

2608
01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,265
and they would bring

2609
01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,265
another one out,

2610
01:18:48,307 --> 01:18:51,768
and they would bring another

2611
01:18:48,307 --> 01:18:51,768
one, and another one.

2612
01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:58,192
And they lay them in a line,

2613
01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:58,192
wrapped in these sheets.

2614
01:18:58,234 --> 01:19:02,863
And then a nurse came,

2615
01:18:58,234 --> 01:19:02,863
and she moved the blanket

2616
01:19:02,905 --> 01:19:05,741
back from their feet,

2617
01:19:05,782 --> 01:19:10,580
and she was writing things, and

2618
01:19:05,782 --> 01:19:10,580
she tagged their little feet.

2619
01:19:10,621 --> 01:19:14,791
And I think that's

2620
01:19:10,621 --> 01:19:14,791
when reality, you know, set in,

2621
01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:17,753
that my son Tevin's

2622
01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:17,753
not coming home.

2623
01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050
FLOWERS:

2624
01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050
When a baby's body was carried

2625
01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050
out of that building,

2626
01:19:23,092 --> 01:19:25,595
even though one person

2627
01:19:23,092 --> 01:19:25,595
carried that baby,

2628
01:19:25,636 --> 01:19:28,305
(voice breaking):

2629
01:19:25,636 --> 01:19:28,305
we all carried that baby.

2630
01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,474
And when we laid him down onto

2631
01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,474
that makeshift morgue

2632
01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:32,184
and lined those children up

2633
01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:32,184
out there,

2634
01:19:32,226 --> 01:19:34,353
that was really

2635
01:19:32,226 --> 01:19:34,353
a hard thing to see,

2636
01:19:34,395 --> 01:19:36,813
because that was all

2637
01:19:34,395 --> 01:19:36,813
of our kids.

2638
01:19:36,855 --> 01:19:39,024
That was everybody's kids.

2639
01:19:39,066 --> 01:19:40,859
That wasn't just

2640
01:19:39,066 --> 01:19:40,859
one person's child.

2641
01:19:40,901 --> 01:19:42,361
They belonged to everybody.

2642
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:56,459
The emotions that we felt and

2643
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:56,459
still feel to this day

2644
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,253
from what we saw was

2645
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,253
just remarkable.

2646
01:20:01,672 --> 01:20:05,134
And the kids that survived

2647
01:20:01,672 --> 01:20:05,134
and came through that

2648
01:20:05,175 --> 01:20:08,095
was just absolutely incredible.

2649
01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311
JIM DENNY:

2650
01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311
Our children ended up

2651
01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311
at two different hospitals.

2652
01:20:15,352 --> 01:20:17,896
And once we found them,

2653
01:20:17,938 --> 01:20:20,149
we just made up our minds

2654
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:22,901
that Claudia was gonna be

2655
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:22,901
with Rebecca

2656
01:20:22,943 --> 01:20:24,570
and I was gonna be with Brandon.

2657
01:20:27,531 --> 01:20:31,661
(unintelligible conversation)

2658
01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,667
When I got there,

2659
01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,667
Brandon had just had

2660
01:20:37,708 --> 01:20:40,252
a four-and-a-half-hour

2661
01:20:37,708 --> 01:20:40,252
brain surgery.

2662
01:20:40,294 --> 01:20:42,004
How's Daddy's

2663
01:20:40,294 --> 01:20:42,004
big boy, huh?

2664
01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174
DENNY:

2665
01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174
He had a piece of something

2666
01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174
blown into the upper left side

2667
01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:48,135
of his head

2668
01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:48,135
that went into his brain.

2669
01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:54,891
Dr. Reynolds, his neurosurgeon,

2670
01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:54,891
could not tell us

2671
01:20:54,933 --> 01:20:56,226
whether he'd live or not.

2672
01:20:59,855 --> 01:21:01,440
We knew for an absolute fact

2673
01:21:01,482 --> 01:21:05,152
that our children

2674
01:21:01,482 --> 01:21:05,152
were 50 feet from it.

2675
01:21:05,194 --> 01:21:07,738
50 feet from a massive bomb.

2676
01:21:10,073 --> 01:21:12,117
There was five children

2677
01:21:10,073 --> 01:21:12,117
sitting at a table

2678
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,871
in the daycare center,

2679
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,871
and one in the bathroom.

2680
01:21:15,912 --> 01:21:17,623
And those six survived.

2681
01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337
CLAUDIA DENNY:

2682
01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337
When I saw Rebecca

2683
01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337
for the first time,

2684
01:21:23,379 --> 01:21:26,923
the doctor said,

2685
01:21:23,379 --> 01:21:26,923
"She's going to be fine."

2686
01:21:26,965 --> 01:21:29,677
She has a lot of cuts, bruises,

2687
01:21:29,719 --> 01:21:32,847
and she has a broken

2688
01:21:29,719 --> 01:21:32,847
collarbone.

2689
01:21:32,888 --> 01:21:34,890
But she was alive.

2690
01:21:37,434 --> 01:21:42,231
At 9:02 that day,

2691
01:21:37,434 --> 01:21:42,231
our world ended.

2692
01:21:42,272 --> 01:21:44,734
And then when we found our kids,

2693
01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:51,281
our new world began at 4:00

2694
01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:51,281
on April 19.

2695
01:21:51,323 --> 01:21:53,743
I love you, baby.

2696
01:22:04,420 --> 01:22:05,796
How you doing today, sir?

2697
01:22:05,838 --> 01:22:06,963
We're currently conducting

2698
01:22:05,838 --> 01:22:06,963
an investigation

2699
01:22:07,005 --> 01:22:08,257
into the Oklahoma City

2700
01:22:07,005 --> 01:22:08,257
bombing.

2701
01:22:08,298 --> 01:22:10,509
Do you usually travel

2702
01:22:08,298 --> 01:22:10,509
this road very much?

2703
01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:12,428
RICKS:

2704
01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:12,428
We operate under the premise

2705
01:22:12,469 --> 01:22:15,972
that the evidence leads you

2706
01:22:12,469 --> 01:22:15,972
to where you want to go.

2707
01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,477
We have to gather every bit

2708
01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,477
of evidence that we can

2709
01:22:20,519 --> 01:22:24,523
and then start trying to form

2710
01:22:20,519 --> 01:22:24,523
hypotheses and theories

2711
01:22:24,565 --> 01:22:27,025
as to what has transpired.

2712
01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,111
Did you notice

2713
01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,111
a Ryder truck?

2714
01:22:29,152 --> 01:22:31,781
The first real break

2715
01:22:29,152 --> 01:22:31,781
of the investigation,

2716
01:22:31,822 --> 01:22:33,866
which happened within hours

2717
01:22:31,822 --> 01:22:33,866
of the bombing,

2718
01:22:33,908 --> 01:22:35,701
was we found the rear axle

2719
01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,995
of what turned out

2720
01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,995
to be the bomb truck.

2721
01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540
HERSLEY:

2722
01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540
On the rear axle assembly,

2723
01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540
there's what's called

2724
01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:44,126
a confidential vehicle

2725
01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:44,126
identification number,

2726
01:22:44,167 --> 01:22:47,003
which was PVA26077.

2727
01:22:47,045 --> 01:22:48,505
I'll never forget that number.

2728
01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929
TONGATE:

2729
01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929
We were able to trace that

2730
01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929
number to a Ryder truck

2731
01:22:54,970 --> 01:23:00,016
assigned to Elliott's Body Shop

2732
01:22:54,970 --> 01:23:00,016
in Junction City, Kansas.

2733
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978
RICKS:

2734
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978
We immediately deployed

2735
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978
special agents

2736
01:23:03,019 --> 01:23:05,397
to that Ryder truck rental shop.

2737
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400
We learned that it had been

2738
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400
rented by a gentleman

2739
01:23:08,442 --> 01:23:11,111
with a South Dakota driver's

2740
01:23:08,442 --> 01:23:11,111
license

2741
01:23:11,153 --> 01:23:14,907
by the name of Robert Kling.

2742
01:23:14,949 --> 01:23:19,745
We had three principal witnesses

2743
01:23:14,949 --> 01:23:19,745
there inside the truck rental.

2744
01:23:19,787 --> 01:23:24,917
They described a military type

2745
01:23:19,787 --> 01:23:24,917
person, about six foot tall,

2746
01:23:24,959 --> 01:23:28,587
thin, close shaven.

2747
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:32,549
They also believed that there

2748
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:32,549
was a second person with him,

2749
01:23:32,591 --> 01:23:34,844
so we called these John Doe

2750
01:23:32,591 --> 01:23:34,844
number one

2751
01:23:34,885 --> 01:23:36,637
and John Doe number two.

2752
01:23:38,388 --> 01:23:43,310
Our agents flooded the area

2753
01:23:38,388 --> 01:23:43,310
of Junction City.

2754
01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:48,858
One particular agent went

2755
01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:48,858
to the Dreamland Motel,

2756
01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:51,986
and he asked the manager,

2757
01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:51,986
"Has anybody been in here

2758
01:23:52,027 --> 01:23:54,196
with a Ryder truck?"

2759
01:23:54,237 --> 01:23:56,907
TONGATE:

2760
01:23:54,237 --> 01:23:56,907
She said, "Yes.

2761
01:23:56,949 --> 01:24:00,536
"I had a customer who stayed

2762
01:23:56,949 --> 01:24:00,536
here in room 25

2763
01:24:00,577 --> 01:24:03,497
"that had a Ryder truck parked

2764
01:24:00,577 --> 01:24:03,497
at the motel,

2765
01:24:03,539 --> 01:24:09,044
and I last saw him on Tuesday

2766
01:24:03,539 --> 01:24:09,044
morning, April the 18th."

2767
01:24:09,085 --> 01:24:11,922
After talking to her

2768
01:24:09,085 --> 01:24:11,922
about the Ryder truck,

2769
01:24:11,964 --> 01:24:16,301
they show her the sketch,

2770
01:24:11,964 --> 01:24:16,301
and she recognizes it.

2771
01:24:16,343 --> 01:24:18,595
She pulls out her records,

2772
01:24:18,637 --> 01:24:20,848
and for all of McVeigh's

2773
01:24:18,637 --> 01:24:20,848
planning,

2774
01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:24,142
he apparently had a moment

2775
01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:24,142
of weakness

2776
01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:28,731
and he signed his own name

2777
01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:28,731
to the register.

2778
01:24:28,772 --> 01:24:30,190
HERSLEY:

2779
01:24:28,772 --> 01:24:30,190
So that really got us.

2780
01:24:30,232 --> 01:24:32,108
We wanted to know

2781
01:24:30,232 --> 01:24:32,108
who Tim McVeigh was.

2782
01:24:32,150 --> 01:24:33,610
So what we did

2783
01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:36,154
was go into the National Crime

2784
01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:36,154
Information Center

2785
01:24:36,196 --> 01:24:38,281
and run an offline search,

2786
01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,409
and try to find out if anybody

2787
01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,409
named Tim McVeigh

2788
01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,118
has been arrested anywhere

2789
01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,118
in the United States

2790
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:43,328
in the recent past.

2791
01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:49,084
RICKS: It turns out

2792
01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:49,084
that a highway patrolman

2793
01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:53,213
has arrested someone by the name

2794
01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:53,213
of Timothy McVeigh.

2795
01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137
HERBECK:

2796
01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137
He was heading off toward Kansas

2797
01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137
in this old Mercury Marquis.

2798
01:25:01,179 --> 01:25:06,142
He'd got on the interstate, and

2799
01:25:01,179 --> 01:25:06,142
a state trooper pulled him over

2800
01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:11,941
because he had no license plate

2801
01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:11,941
on the back of his car.

2802
01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152
HANCOCK:

2803
01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152
The trooper then notices a bulge

2804
01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152
under the driver's jacket,

2805
01:25:16,194 --> 01:25:19,531
and says, "Is that a gun?"

2806
01:25:19,573 --> 01:25:21,742
The driver acknowledges,

2807
01:25:19,573 --> 01:25:21,742
"Yes, it is,"

2808
01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:24,244
and Tim McVeigh

2809
01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:24,244
is put under arrest

2810
01:25:24,286 --> 01:25:27,748
and taken to the county jail.

2811
01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,168
MICHEL:

2812
01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,168
The T-shirt he is wearing

2813
01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:36,924
says  sic semper tyrannis--

2814
01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:36,924
"thus ever to tyrants."

2815
01:25:36,966 --> 01:25:41,762
It was what John Wilkes Booth

2816
01:25:36,966 --> 01:25:41,762
shouted when he shot Lincoln.

2817
01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,934
For two days McVeigh languished

2818
01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,934
in the jail

2819
01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:51,021
and nobody really knew

2820
01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:51,021
who he was.

2821
01:25:51,063 --> 01:25:55,400
Other than the fact that he was

2822
01:25:51,063 --> 01:25:55,400
illegally carrying a weapon,

2823
01:25:55,442 --> 01:26:00,530
the police had no suspicions

2824
01:25:55,442 --> 01:26:00,530
about him.

2825
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158
RICKS:

2826
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158
We called up the courthouse

2827
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158
there and learned

2828
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,078
that Timothy McVeigh was just

2829
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,078
getting ready to appear

2830
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,456
before the judge and was about

2831
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,456
ready to be released.

2832
01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:11,207
So we said, you know,

2833
01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:11,207
"Put a hold on him.

2834
01:26:11,249 --> 01:26:12,626
We're on our way."

2835
01:26:16,005 --> 01:26:18,548
MICHEL:

2836
01:26:16,005 --> 01:26:18,548
Two federal agents interview him

2837
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:22,011
in the Noble County

2838
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:22,011
sheriff's office.

2839
01:26:22,052 --> 01:26:26,140
And the agents start by saying,

2840
01:26:22,052 --> 01:26:26,140
"Do you know why we're here?"

2841
01:26:26,181 --> 01:26:28,767
And McVeigh says,

2842
01:26:28,809 --> 01:26:31,854
"Does it have something to do

2843
01:26:28,809 --> 01:26:31,854
with the bombing?"

2844
01:26:37,151 --> 01:26:40,236
I am pleased to announce

2845
01:26:37,151 --> 01:26:40,236
that one of the individuals

2846
01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:44,116
believed to be responsible for

2847
01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:44,116
Wednesday's terrible attack

2848
01:26:44,158 --> 01:26:46,618
on the Murrah Federal Building

2849
01:26:44,158 --> 01:26:46,618
in Oklahoma City

2850
01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:48,537
has been arrested.

2851
01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,291
FENWICK: Once they know

2852
01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,291
they've got their guy,

2853
01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:57,796
the decision's made to take

2854
01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:57,796
him to a more secure facility.

2855
01:26:57,838 --> 01:27:00,298
The word is leaked out

2856
01:26:57,838 --> 01:27:00,298
to the press,

2857
01:27:00,340 --> 01:27:03,010
which broadcasts it on TV,

2858
01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:07,514
so people drive there

2859
01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:07,514
from all over to see this.

2860
01:27:10,308 --> 01:27:14,813
(crowd shouting, booing)

2861
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274
POTOK:

2862
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274
I and the rest of the country

2863
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274
saw Timothy McVeigh

2864
01:27:18,316 --> 01:27:20,110
for the very first time.

2865
01:27:20,152 --> 01:27:23,113
And we understood

2866
01:27:20,152 --> 01:27:23,113
in a kind of flash

2867
01:27:23,155 --> 01:27:25,949
that there were enemies

2868
01:27:23,155 --> 01:27:25,949
within this country.

2869
01:27:25,991 --> 01:27:30,453
Not foreign terrorists,

2870
01:27:25,991 --> 01:27:30,453
but red-blooded Americans

2871
01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:34,875
who were engaged in a war

2872
01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:34,875
against America.

2873
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294
FENWICK:

2874
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294
It was just the lightning moment

2875
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294
of recognition.

2876
01:27:38,336 --> 01:27:40,630
This was the guy in the sketch.

2877
01:27:40,672 --> 01:27:43,299
It was that guy.

2878
01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:48,097
I think everybody felt this

2879
01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:48,097
sudden sense of betrayal.

2880
01:27:48,138 --> 01:27:52,308
I think everyone thought,

2881
01:27:48,138 --> 01:27:52,308
"You're one of us."

2882
01:27:52,350 --> 01:27:54,144
REPORTER:

2883
01:27:52,350 --> 01:27:54,144
Mr. President,

2884
01:27:54,186 --> 01:27:58,774
is there a sense now, sir, that

2885
01:27:54,186 --> 01:27:58,774
this was not a foreign threat?

2886
01:27:58,815 --> 01:28:01,276
Let me say that I have never,

2887
01:28:01,317 --> 01:28:03,486
and the Justice Department has

2888
01:28:01,317 --> 01:28:03,486
never said,

2889
01:28:03,528 --> 01:28:05,614
that it was a foreign threat,

2890
01:28:05,655 --> 01:28:09,243
but the most important thing

2891
01:28:05,655 --> 01:28:09,243
that you understand

2892
01:28:09,284 --> 01:28:13,038
is that even though this is

2893
01:28:09,284 --> 01:28:13,038
a positive development,

2894
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:16,959
this investigation has a lot of

2895
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:16,959
work still to be done in it.

2896
01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,217
RICKS:

2897
01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,217
The capture of Timothy McVeigh

2898
01:28:25,259 --> 01:28:28,303
really just launched

2899
01:28:25,259 --> 01:28:28,303
the investigation.

2900
01:28:28,344 --> 01:28:30,346
The circumstances, obviously,

2901
01:28:28,344 --> 01:28:30,346
indicated

2902
01:28:30,388 --> 01:28:34,184
that he was directly involved,

2903
01:28:30,388 --> 01:28:34,184
but, you know, to what extent?

2904
01:28:35,894 --> 01:28:40,482
His driver's license had an

2905
01:28:35,894 --> 01:28:40,482
address in Decker, Michigan.

2906
01:28:40,523 --> 01:28:45,154
We dispatched agents

2907
01:28:40,523 --> 01:28:45,154
to that location

2908
01:28:45,195 --> 01:28:47,990
and we find out

2909
01:28:45,195 --> 01:28:47,990
that the gentleman there

2910
01:28:48,031 --> 01:28:51,994
by the name of James Nichols

2911
01:28:48,031 --> 01:28:51,994
had a brother, Terry,

2912
01:28:52,035 --> 01:28:56,165
presently residing

2913
01:28:52,035 --> 01:28:56,165
in Herington, Kansas.

2914
01:28:56,206 --> 01:29:00,376
We ended up executing a search

2915
01:28:56,206 --> 01:29:00,376
warrant on Terry Nichols' home

2916
01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:05,381
in Kansas, and that search

2917
01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:05,381
warrant was a gold mine.

2918
01:29:05,423 --> 01:29:11,346
In there we found a receipt for

2919
01:29:05,423 --> 01:29:11,346
2,000 pounds of fertilizer.

2920
01:29:11,387 --> 01:29:14,724
We found a cordless drill

2921
01:29:11,387 --> 01:29:14,724
that turned out to be

2922
01:29:14,766 --> 01:29:17,393
a key piece of evidence.

2923
01:29:17,435 --> 01:29:21,106
But probably  the  most important

2924
01:29:17,435 --> 01:29:21,106
piece of evidence

2925
01:29:21,148 --> 01:29:25,152
that we found was a calling card

2926
01:29:21,148 --> 01:29:25,152
in the name of Daryl Bridges,

2927
01:29:25,194 --> 01:29:29,948
who shared the same

2928
01:29:25,194 --> 01:29:29,948
address in Decker, Michigan.

2929
01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287
HERSLEY:

2930
01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287
There were 685 calls

2931
01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287
made on the calling card.

2932
01:29:35,329 --> 01:29:38,790
We determined where every one of

2933
01:29:35,329 --> 01:29:38,790
those calls was placed from,

2934
01:29:38,832 --> 01:29:41,417
the duration of the call,

2935
01:29:38,832 --> 01:29:41,417
and who the call was made to.

2936
01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:46,631
So we saw many calls to chemical

2937
01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:46,631
companies, to barrel companies,

2938
01:29:46,673 --> 01:29:49,801
to racetracks,

2939
01:29:46,673 --> 01:29:49,801
all kinds of places

2940
01:29:49,843 --> 01:29:52,762
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols

2941
01:29:49,843 --> 01:29:52,762
were contacting

2942
01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:56,725
to try to acquire

2943
01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:56,725
bomb components.

2944
01:29:56,766 --> 01:29:59,435
We also found out about

2945
01:29:56,766 --> 01:29:59,435
Michael Fortier

2946
01:29:59,477 --> 01:30:01,021
through the calling card.

2947
01:30:03,273 --> 01:30:05,734
He knew more than we did

2948
01:30:03,273 --> 01:30:05,734
about the bombing.

2949
01:30:05,775 --> 01:30:08,444
He knew, for example,

2950
01:30:05,775 --> 01:30:08,444
that Tim McVeigh,

2951
01:30:08,486 --> 01:30:10,322
when he was staying at their

2952
01:30:08,486 --> 01:30:10,322
house in Kingman,

2953
01:30:10,364 --> 01:30:12,532
had taken all these soup cans

2954
01:30:10,364 --> 01:30:12,532
down from the kitchen

2955
01:30:12,574 --> 01:30:16,119
and showed Michael Fortier's

2956
01:30:12,574 --> 01:30:16,119
wife exactly how he was going

2957
01:30:16,161 --> 01:30:20,999
to construct the bomb inside

2958
01:30:16,161 --> 01:30:20,999
the back of that Ryder truck.

2959
01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:25,712
Last night, Timothy McVeigh

2960
01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:25,712
was charged in the bombing

2961
01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:28,506
of the Murrah Federal Building

2962
01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:28,506
here in Oklahoma City.

2963
01:30:28,548 --> 01:30:33,887
Two brothers, James Douglas

2964
01:30:28,548 --> 01:30:33,887
Nichols and Terry Lynn Nichols,

2965
01:30:33,929 --> 01:30:36,014
are currently in federal custody

2966
01:30:36,056 --> 01:30:38,850
and are being held

2967
01:30:36,056 --> 01:30:38,850
as material witnesses.

2968
01:30:38,892 --> 01:30:41,435
Another suspect,

2969
01:30:38,892 --> 01:30:41,435
whom we have identified

2970
01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:47,109
as John Doe number two, remains

2971
01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:47,109
unidentified and at large.

2972
01:30:47,150 --> 01:30:49,361
RICKS:

2973
01:30:47,150 --> 01:30:49,361
A mistake was made.

2974
01:30:49,403 --> 01:30:53,656
The artist conception has him

2975
01:30:49,403 --> 01:30:53,656
with a Carolina Panthers cap on.

2976
01:30:53,698 --> 01:30:57,035
It turns out that a guy had

2977
01:30:53,698 --> 01:30:57,035
happened to be

2978
01:30:57,077 --> 01:30:59,495
in the Ryder truck rental shop

2979
01:30:59,537 --> 01:31:02,082
the day before

2980
01:30:59,537 --> 01:31:02,082
Timothy McVeigh was.

2981
01:31:02,124 --> 01:31:06,544
His description is almost

2982
01:31:02,124 --> 01:31:06,544
to a T.

2983
01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,630
MCVEIGH:

2984
01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,630
Is there a John Doe two?

2985
01:31:08,671 --> 01:31:11,049
Either way I can answer it

2986
01:31:08,671 --> 01:31:11,049
should be scary

2987
01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,219
because, number one,

2988
01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,219
if there are other people,

2989
01:31:14,261 --> 01:31:16,430
that means they're still

2990
01:31:14,261 --> 01:31:16,430
out there.

2991
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:19,891
On the other hand, if it was

2992
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:19,891
just me, that in itself,

2993
01:31:19,933 --> 01:31:22,602
isn't that pretty scary

2994
01:31:19,933 --> 01:31:22,602
that one man could do that?

2995
01:31:22,644 --> 01:31:28,524
That's why "You can't handle the

2996
01:31:22,644 --> 01:31:28,524
truth" is the perfect line,

2997
01:31:28,566 --> 01:31:31,945
because the truth is

2998
01:31:28,566 --> 01:31:31,945
it was just me.

2999
01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538
FENWICK:

3000
01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538
The prosecution hit

3001
01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538
McVeigh's defense team

3002
01:31:42,580 --> 01:31:44,916
with everything they had.

3003
01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:49,963
Michael Fortier's testimony

3004
01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:49,963
was crucial and damning,

3005
01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:54,384
but he also told

3006
01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:54,384
a very poignant story.

3007
01:31:54,426 --> 01:31:57,137
He talked about how he would

3008
01:31:54,426 --> 01:31:57,137
have a dream at night

3009
01:31:57,179 --> 01:32:00,098
that he was calling people

3010
01:31:57,179 --> 01:32:00,098
to warn them,

3011
01:32:00,140 --> 01:32:03,768
and then he'd wake up,

3012
01:32:00,140 --> 01:32:03,768
and he was in jail,

3013
01:32:03,810 --> 01:32:05,687
and he hadn't made the call,

3014
01:32:05,728 --> 01:32:09,523
and that people were dead

3015
01:32:05,728 --> 01:32:09,523
because of him.

3016
01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:16,572
I was the second witness

3017
01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:16,572
in the trial,

3018
01:32:16,614 --> 01:32:19,575
and as I sat in

3019
01:32:16,614 --> 01:32:19,575
that witness stand,

3020
01:32:19,617 --> 01:32:25,581
it seemed just like an arm's

3021
01:32:19,617 --> 01:32:25,581
reach away was Timothy McVeigh.

3022
01:32:25,623 --> 01:32:29,627
He did look me in the eyes,

3023
01:32:25,623 --> 01:32:29,627
and he did try to intimidate me,

3024
01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:32,588
but I was far

3025
01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:32,588
from being intimidated.

3026
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261
GARRETT:

3027
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261
When I had to testify,

3028
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261
and people would ask later,

3029
01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:40,596
"How did you sit in

3030
01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:40,596
the room with the man

3031
01:32:40,638 --> 01:32:42,140
who murdered your son?"

3032
01:32:42,182 --> 01:32:45,601
And I told them my story

3033
01:32:42,182 --> 01:32:45,601
is more powerful

3034
01:32:45,643 --> 01:32:46,978
than me yelling at him.

3035
01:32:47,020 --> 01:32:52,234
My story is more powerful

3036
01:32:47,020 --> 01:32:52,234
than my fist.

3037
01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:54,861
I'm not going to go

3038
01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:54,861
to his level.

3039
01:32:54,903 --> 01:32:57,906
You know, I deserve better;

3040
01:32:54,903 --> 01:32:57,906
Tevin deserved better.

3041
01:32:57,947 --> 01:33:02,576
Every victim of the bombing

3042
01:32:57,947 --> 01:33:02,576
deserved better than that.

3043
01:33:16,799 --> 01:33:20,345
McVeigh all along wanted

3044
01:33:16,799 --> 01:33:20,345
a necessity defense,

3045
01:33:20,387 --> 01:33:23,056
that he had no choice

3046
01:33:20,387 --> 01:33:23,056
but to bomb to building.

3047
01:33:23,098 --> 01:33:28,311
He did not want to claim

3048
01:33:23,098 --> 01:33:28,311
some widespread conspiracy,

3049
01:33:28,353 --> 01:33:32,857
which members of

3050
01:33:28,353 --> 01:33:32,857
the defense team wanted.

3051
01:33:32,899 --> 01:33:34,901
McVeigh wanted no part of that

3052
01:33:34,943 --> 01:33:37,653
because, number one,

3053
01:33:34,943 --> 01:33:37,653
it wasn't true

3054
01:33:37,695 --> 01:33:40,031
and, number two,

3055
01:33:40,073 --> 01:33:43,659
he did want credit

3056
01:33:40,073 --> 01:33:43,659
for this thing he had done.

3057
01:33:43,701 --> 01:33:49,416
And no evidence has ever

3058
01:33:43,701 --> 01:33:49,416
surfaced that anybody but him,

3059
01:33:49,458 --> 01:33:54,296
with-with a little bit of help

3060
01:33:49,458 --> 01:33:54,296
from his two Army buddies,

3061
01:33:54,337 --> 01:33:56,672
pulled this off.

3062
01:33:56,714 --> 01:33:58,341
He built this bomb.

3063
01:33:58,383 --> 01:34:03,888
He designed it, he built it,

3064
01:33:58,383 --> 01:34:03,888
and he was proud of that.

3065
01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:07,517
ZESKIND:

3066
01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:07,517
There was no massive conspiracy.

3067
01:34:07,559 --> 01:34:10,479
That much is clear.

3068
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:15,567
But the idea that Timothy

3069
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:15,567
McVeigh was a lone killer

3070
01:34:15,609 --> 01:34:19,279
is wrong-headed because it

3071
01:34:15,609 --> 01:34:19,279
absolves the movement

3072
01:34:19,321 --> 01:34:21,364
from which it all sprang.

3073
01:34:21,406 --> 01:34:25,701
Timothy McVeigh

3074
01:34:21,406 --> 01:34:25,701
was not on his own.

3075
01:34:25,743 --> 01:34:29,998
He was a creation of the

3076
01:34:25,743 --> 01:34:29,998
white supremacist movement.

3077
01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,042
He carried  The Turner Diaries

3078
01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,042
around

3079
01:34:33,084 --> 01:34:34,710
and read it to people.

3080
01:34:34,752 --> 01:34:38,173
He lived at the gun shows.

3081
01:34:38,214 --> 01:34:42,260
He met Neo-Nazis

3082
01:34:38,214 --> 01:34:42,260
and visited with them.

3083
01:34:42,302 --> 01:34:45,305
He was part of this movement.

3084
01:34:45,347 --> 01:34:48,266
And the idea that

3085
01:34:45,347 --> 01:34:48,266
there was no connection

3086
01:34:48,308 --> 01:34:50,393
between the white supremacist

3087
01:34:48,308 --> 01:34:50,393
movement

3088
01:34:50,435 --> 01:34:54,564
and the events in Oklahoma City

3089
01:34:50,435 --> 01:34:54,564
is patently false.

3090
01:34:54,606 --> 01:34:59,735
There was a strong connection,

3091
01:34:54,606 --> 01:34:59,735
and it was a deep connection.

3092
01:35:02,405 --> 01:35:03,990
WRIGHT:

3093
01:35:02,405 --> 01:35:03,990
When the verdict was read,

3094
01:35:04,032 --> 01:35:05,992
McVeigh's demeanor

3095
01:35:04,032 --> 01:35:05,992
didn't change at all.

3096
01:35:06,034 --> 01:35:07,536
He didn't even blink.

3097
01:35:07,577 --> 01:35:11,956
I think he fully expected

3098
01:35:07,577 --> 01:35:11,956
to get the verdict

3099
01:35:11,998 --> 01:35:14,750
and he fully expected

3100
01:35:11,998 --> 01:35:14,750
to get the death penalty,

3101
01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,128
and he expected to die

3102
01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,048
because I think he

3103
01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,048
wanted to be a martyr.

3104
01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889
FENWICK:

3105
01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889
He thought he was starting

3106
01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889
the next American Revolution.

3107
01:35:27,930 --> 01:35:31,393
I think he did

3108
01:35:27,930 --> 01:35:31,393
exactly the opposite,

3109
01:35:31,434 --> 01:35:35,605
because he showed the human face

3110
01:35:35,647 --> 01:35:40,818
of what it really

3111
01:35:35,647 --> 01:35:40,818
means to attack a government,

3112
01:35:40,860 --> 01:35:42,654
a government of the people.

3113
01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:48,117
SCHWAB:

3114
01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:48,117
We were the government.

3115
01:35:48,159 --> 01:35:50,078
We weren't bad guys.

3116
01:35:50,119 --> 01:35:58,169
We were mothers and fathers

3117
01:35:50,119 --> 01:35:58,169
and daughters and sons

3118
01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:02,549
and grandparents

3119
01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:02,549
who had a job to do.

3120
01:36:04,884 --> 01:36:08,430
Supposedly you don't have

3121
01:36:04,884 --> 01:36:08,430
job satisfaction

3122
01:36:08,471 --> 01:36:10,557
if you work for the government.

3123
01:36:10,599 --> 01:36:14,561
I never heard that type of talk

3124
01:36:10,599 --> 01:36:14,561
in our office.

3125
01:36:14,603 --> 01:36:16,770
We were very proud

3126
01:36:14,603 --> 01:36:16,770
of what we did.

3127
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:31,160
MCVEIGH:

3128
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:31,160
Death penalty is...

3129
01:36:31,202 --> 01:36:33,580
would you call it an oxymoron?

3130
01:36:33,622 --> 01:36:37,833
Death is not a penalty,

3131
01:36:33,622 --> 01:36:37,833
it's an escape.

3132
01:36:37,875 --> 01:36:39,628
They treat me like a trophy,

3133
01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:42,505
like they've got me, they're

3134
01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:42,505
gonna kill me, "We've won."

3135
01:36:42,547 --> 01:36:45,091
They didn't win.

3136
01:36:45,133 --> 01:36:49,429
In the crudest terms: 168-1.

3137
01:37:04,402 --> 01:37:07,572
NORFLEET:

3138
01:37:04,402 --> 01:37:07,572
He died without a word.

3139
01:37:07,614 --> 01:37:09,865
There was no pain.

3140
01:37:09,907 --> 01:37:12,327
There was no regret.

3141
01:37:12,368 --> 01:37:14,329
Because I looked into his eyes

3142
01:37:14,370 --> 01:37:16,872
before they were closed

3143
01:37:14,370 --> 01:37:16,872
that last time,

3144
01:37:16,914 --> 01:37:21,877
and saw the same deep anger

3145
01:37:16,914 --> 01:37:21,877
and resentment and rage

3146
01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:27,133
that I had seen in that trial

3147
01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:27,133
several years before.

3148
01:37:30,928 --> 01:37:33,222
FLOWERS:

3149
01:37:30,928 --> 01:37:33,222
Justice was served.

3150
01:37:33,264 --> 01:37:35,266
That don't bring them back.

3151
01:37:35,308 --> 01:37:37,435
It just won't bring them back.

3152
01:37:37,477 --> 01:37:40,396
But it closes a door

3153
01:37:37,477 --> 01:37:40,396
on that chapter,

3154
01:37:40,438 --> 01:37:41,897
and that's exactly

3155
01:37:40,438 --> 01:37:41,897
what happened

3156
01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:45,735
when they lowered the boom

3157
01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:45,735
down on Timothy McVeigh.

3158
01:37:51,157 --> 01:37:53,576
JIM DENNY:

3159
01:37:51,157 --> 01:37:53,576
We didn't go to the execution.

3160
01:37:53,618 --> 01:37:56,663
We had no time to worry

3161
01:37:53,618 --> 01:37:56,663
about that.

3162
01:37:58,832 --> 01:38:02,918
Our total focus, regardless

3163
01:37:58,832 --> 01:38:02,918
of whatever it took,

3164
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:04,170
was our children.

3165
01:38:04,212 --> 01:38:06,880
Our children and our family.

3166
01:38:08,966 --> 01:38:11,803
CLAUDIA DENNY:

3167
01:38:08,966 --> 01:38:11,803
We were very blessed.

3168
01:38:11,845 --> 01:38:14,930
But it's been hard for us.

3169
01:38:14,972 --> 01:38:19,060
I mean to watch Brandon

3170
01:38:14,972 --> 01:38:19,060
struggle, as he's struggled,

3171
01:38:19,101 --> 01:38:21,354
for the last 20 years.

3172
01:38:21,396 --> 01:38:25,817
Faith, family, and friends--

3173
01:38:25,859 --> 01:38:30,154
that's how we survived

3174
01:38:25,859 --> 01:38:30,154
through all of this.

3175
01:38:30,196 --> 01:38:33,783
But also it makes me

3176
01:38:30,196 --> 01:38:33,783
wonder why a little bit.

3177
01:38:33,825 --> 01:38:35,951
I mean, I don't question

3178
01:38:33,825 --> 01:38:35,951
it all the time,

3179
01:38:35,993 --> 01:38:38,830
but sometimes I question why.

3180
01:38:38,872 --> 01:38:43,626
And I do have a little bit

3181
01:38:38,872 --> 01:38:43,626
of the survivor guilt

3182
01:38:43,668 --> 01:38:47,921
that my children survived

3183
01:38:43,668 --> 01:38:47,921
and some of the others didn't.

3184
01:38:47,963 --> 01:38:50,884
(siren wailing)

3185
01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769
GARRETT:

3186
01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769
I still have hope that no one

3187
01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769
ever again becomes so enraged

3188
01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,440
with hatred and prejudice

3189
01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,440
and judgment

3190
01:39:05,481 --> 01:39:11,987
that they think the only thing

3191
01:39:05,481 --> 01:39:11,987
to do is to kill

3192
01:39:12,029 --> 01:39:14,990
and harm other people.

3193
01:39:15,032 --> 01:39:20,872
I have hope that through

3194
01:39:15,032 --> 01:39:20,872
all of this

3195
01:39:20,914 --> 01:39:26,461
that love is stronger

3196
01:39:20,914 --> 01:39:26,461
than any terrorist attack.

3197
01:39:29,046 --> 01:39:32,258
I have hope that that would

3198
01:39:29,046 --> 01:39:32,258
never happen again.

3199
01:40:27,062 --> 01:40:29,022
♪ ♪

3200
01:41:49,729 --> 01:41:51,480
♪ ♪